In advance of a planned BBB game next week, I have been looking at the scenario in the rulebook to get an idea of the scenery I will need for the table. One thing has cropped up that I hope the august members of this forum may be able to answer, namely:
- In the BBB scenario, one unit of infantry and one of artillery are allowed to deploy in rifle pits between Roncourt and St Privat.
- In the 1870 scenario by Bruce Weigle, "The undermanned 6th Corps around St Privat had not dug in, for lack of engineers and tools." The scenario for Volley & Bayonet concurs with this.
- In Howard there is a hint that the 6th Corps did indeed dig in as he says; "perhaps it was the protection afforded by these long fields of fire that made Ladmirault and Canrobert feel excused from digging themselves in as elaborately as LeBoeuf and Frossard were doing on their left."
So the question is should the 6th Corps be allowed some form of entrenchment/rifle pits between Roncourt and St Privat? Any information/views greatly received.
(Note that I have not consulted the Osprey book on the battle as Bruce Weigle is rather damning with regards its accuracy.)
There were some illustrations which show walled gardens outside Saint Privat, but I'm not sure how accurate these are. The French definitely loopholes the walls and removed roofing tiles to fire, that saves digging in. Also there is a small settlement of Saint Marie aux Chênes between the two where Bisson's Division consisting of 9th Regt de Ligne, 9th + 10th Batteries, 13th Field Artillery Regt were deployed.
This was farming territory, they'd had at least 24 hours to prepare. Bet many pick axes and shovels were 'requisitioned' in that time!
St Marie-Aux-Chenes is to the west of St Privat, not between St Privat and Roncourt, and is/was approximately the same size as St Privat itself. There were stone walled gardens in St Privat, facing the slopes up which the Prussian Guard attacked. Roncourt is very much a flank outpost for 6th Corps, according to the Prussian maps garrisoned by a single battalion. The ground between the two villages was not. Strongly held, having one regiment adjacent to St Privat, and then some batteries on the heights. In the end Roncourt itself was attacked, and then used as a jump off point for the Saxons attacking St Privat from the flank. I would be inclined not to allow entrenchment here, or on the front of 6th Corps at all.
Mollinary
http://www.vonsteinmetz.supanet.com/subpages/vnb/reduced-gsp2.html
Have a look
Quote from: mollinary on 12 February 2016, 06:21:43 PM
St Marie-Aux-Chenes is to the west of St Privat, not between St Privat and Roncourt, and is/was approximately the same size as St Privat itself.
and that's why I needed the scenario map,
There were stone walled gardens in St Privat, facing the slopes up which the Prussian Guard attacked.
Knew it! Thanks Andrew
Roncourt is very much a flank outpost for 6th Corps, according to the Prussian maps garrisoned by a single battalion. The ground between the two villages was not. Strongly held, having one regiment adjacent to St Privat, and then some batteries on the heights. In the end Roncourt itself was attacked, and then used as a jump off point for the Saxons attacking St Privat from the flank. I would be inclined not to allow entrenchment here, or on the front of 6th Corps at all.
I would agree, unless occupying a built up area, the VI Corps struggled.
Mollinary
Thanks for the feedback so far chaps, all very useful indeed :).
I cannot answer the question about entrenchments. I would suspect at least hasty works. Here are a couple of photos which may help:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike096.jpg)
Above: the fields east of St.Marie aux Chenes, looking up towards St.Privat.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike097.jpg)
Above: emphasises the slope the Prussian Guard had to get up.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike103.jpg)
Above: the view back down the slope from St.Privat to St.Marie.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike110.jpg)
Above: Roncourt
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike111.jpg)
Above: the entrance to the French memorial, with a gateway looking suspiciously like the one from St.Privat church in the de Neuville painting.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike112.jpg)
Above, dedication to Canrobert.
(http://[http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike105.jpg[img]
Above: the current church in St.Privat.
[imghttp://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike101.jpg)
Above: a house in St.Privat from the time of the battle.
Two photos which didn't make it. The new church in St.Privat, and a house from the time:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike101.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike105.jpg)
Quote from: Leman on 12 February 2016, 08:31:31 PM
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike111.jpg)
Above: the entrance to the French memorial, with a gateway looking suspiciously like the one from St.Privat church in the de Neuville painting
Because it is the original gate to the church at St Privat! There is a photo in the museum at Gravelotte which shows the burnt out remains of the old church behind this gate. The church itself was demolished after the war and rebuilt on a higher site, at the eastern edge of the village,which is the one shown in Leman's later photo.
Mollinary
Beat me to it!
Quote from: Steve J on 12 February 2016, 05:52:04 PM
So the question is should the 6th Corps be allowed some form of entrenchment/rifle pits between Roncourt and St Privat? Any information/views greatly received.
Steve, all,
The question of French entrenchments is one that we gave quite a lot of thought to in creating the BBB Gravelotte / St Privat scenario. For 6th Corps we settled on allowing the French players to put just one of its four divisions, and half of its artillery, in the most basic form of fortification. This could represent shell scrapes or rifle pits, or - if a unit in Roncourt or St Privat itself is selected - it could just mean fortifying the village with barricades, loopholes etc.
I have a pretty extensive FPW library and I'm afraid I can't tell you which sources in particular we drew on for this decision.
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 13 February 2016, 08:32:44 AM
Steve, all,
The question of French entrenchments is one that we gave quite a lot of thought to in creating the BBB Gravelotte / St Privat scenario. For 6th Corps we settled on allowing the French players to put just one of its four divisions, and half of its artillery, in the most basic form of fortification. This could represent shell scrapes or rifle pits, or - if a unit in Roncourt or St Privat itself is selected - it could just mean fortifying the village with barricades, loopholes etc.
I have a pretty extensive FPW library and I'm afraid I can't tell you which sources in particular we drew on for this decision.
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/
The German General Staff History is a good start point. On the defences in the south it says " meanwhile the troops were further increasing the naturally defensive capacity of the position by working with pick axe and shovel, and in a short time there appeared along the front of the 2nd and 3rd Corps a connected system of shelter-trenches, gun-pits, and covered communications. Homesteads, as Point du Jour, Moscou and St Hubert, were transformed into small forts." It then goes on to say, regarding the the 6th Corps position "The right wing of the position in the neighbourhood of St Privat la Montagne was less strongly appuyed on natural obstacles, and as there was no engineer park whatever with the 6th Corps no entrenchments, with the exception of a few shelter-trenches, were thrown up at that point, by which an essential protection could have been contrived for the right flank between Roncourt and the neighbouring impassable Bois de Jaumont."
It is, I think, pretty clear from this that the position of 6th Corps was substantially less well protected than that of 2nd and 3rd Corps.
Mollinary
:-bd
[Excuse the interruption. Just a wee note in appreciation to all of you FPW experts for the info and photographs. Just received delivery of and started reading my copy of Osprey's Gravelotte-St.Privat. Good timing! Enjoying the thread. Carry on, please!]
6th Corps didn't have entrenching tools, nor, I believe was Canrobert particularly enamoured of trench fighting. Even without proper tools the chassepot bayonette and a dixie could have sufficed to make scrapes at a pinch. Frossard (the engineer) by comparison really went to town. I'm pretty sure most of the left flank French graves were shelter trenches which doubled as graves after the battle. The slope between St Marie and St Privat was described to me as 'a perfect natural glacis' and indeed it is. Gently rising, perfectly flat and utterly devoid of cover, a well dug in division could have held it until the crack of doom. As it was I believe the Guard suffered - correct me if I'm wrong - 8000 casualties in 16 minutes.
Andrew's photo of the gate of the cemetery is chilling; the famous painting of the cemetery being over run, with the little Prussian scrambling over the wall like an incubus always gives me the creeps. Roncourt was virtually undefended, if Bourbaki and the Guard had been shuffled to the right in good time the Saxons might not have had the best of it. Gravelotte, a battle lost not won.
Just finished reading Philip Guadella's 'The Two Marshalls' excellent quote which Richard used in his introduction to 'The Road To Sedan' ...
... the marching bearskins of the Guard behind a flaunting
drum-major and the beards and axes of white-aproned
Pioneers, the flaring red and blue of the Zouaves, trim
shakoes of the Line and green Chasseurs under the long
bayonets, and little vivandieres in their gay regimental
petticoats. And then the mounted men came charging
straight for the saluting-base in an immense line that ran
clear across the racecourse, big, burnished Cuirassiers,
helmeted Dragoons, Light Cavalry of every shade in bright
accoutrements and all kinds of headgear, furred, frogged,
and braided, with sling-jackets and without, all thundering
towards them, until the racing horses checked at a shouted
order and all the sabres lifted above a roar of " Vive
L'Empereur" ... in the June sunshine on a field ablaze
with every colour ... the painted army of a painted
Emperor.
Now that is poetry.
But what of the original deployment plan for Canrobert and his corps? If he hadn't thrown a hissy fit at Bazaine he would have been in real trouble by about midday!
I still think Canrobert had some idea of how much trouble the army was in when he refused overall command!
They all did, when Bazaine boarded the train for Metz (before a shot had been fired) he said in an audible aside 'We are going to disaster'. By entrenching on the right and supporting Canrobert with the Guard, the French can hold the Prussians to a day one draw. Interesting to speculate what might happen on day two.
Okay, so, when do we try it? ;)
When I finish moving house, when I write the 1870 mod for FOB2, Autumn?
Top plan
Now I do like a bit of FOB2, although I got seen off last Tuesday playing British/Canadian intervention forces against the USA in the 1860s. The Union had lost the Civil War, the Confederacy had become embroiled in Mexico, the US had adopted German as well as English as an official language, and my nemesis turned out to be a certain General von Custer.
Thanks for you comment Chris and to the other members of the forum. Very useful for a complete newbie to this period to be able to call upon your experience. I'm sure Dave and I will agree what seems best to us when we meet.
I think FOB2 (which, interestingly incorporates a number of mods I had made myself to FOB1) is perfect for this period and for 1866. When I have more time - sorry, substitute more for ANY, I'll playtest our variant and try to get it better. I love the way it introduces real unpredictability but is underpinned by the historical strengths/weaknesses of the historical armies. Also the cards are pretty :-bd
http://www.artscow.com/gallery/playing-cards/prussian-1866-1870-fob-w6znj4jr8ceb
http://www.artscow.com/gallery/playing-cards/austrian1866fob-u7as57cqj7e6
http://www.artscow.com/gallery/playing-cards/french-1870-fob-g1fgjpx03444
Yes, the period/nation specific cards are a real bonus. I am sorely tempted to try out my large base 10mm figures with the system by mounting a dice frame in the back corner. Furthermore they make a very good solo game possible.
Well I bit the bullet last year and made dozens of 'distressed' bases so each attrition results in one good base being substituted for a casualty one. Looks the biz and easy to do.
I am late to this discussion, but I wonder why anyone, let alone a Frenchman, would try to dig a shell scrape with his mess tin or bayonet when he had a solid 4 foot wall already made. The other advantage of using the existing walls is that you do not offer a view of newly turned chalk to the Prussians. So the Prussians think that the French line ends before St Privat, because the turned soil ends there.
When we played it we had a 16 feet by 5 feet table so using 'To the last gaiter button' we could play the whole frontage from the Mance Ravine to way north of Roncourt. We put the first 3 French corps out on the table at the start but we did not put the 6th Corps out. The impetuous Prussian player commanding the Guard, who was in his late 20s so had neither the time nor the inclination to research what actually happened, concluded that by attacking St Privat he would be able to turn the French flank. It does need some umpires and hidden unit markers to achieve this but our outcome was eerily similar to the reality.
I seem to recall that Henry Hyde took a lot of photos that may well still be on his website.
Quote from: holdfast on 13 March 2016, 08:04:31 PM
We put the first 3 French corps out on the table at the start but we did not put the 6th Corps out. The impetuous Prussian player commanding the Guard, who was in his late 20s so had neither the time nor the inclination to research what actually happened, concluded that by attacking St Privat he would be able to turn the French flank. It does need some umpires and hidden unit markers to achieve this but our outcome was eerily similar to the reality.
Was your young Prussian Guardsman miffed at being set up? Or delighted by the clever recreation of history? I can imagine him having either reaction (or perhaps even both). The former is a bit of a risk with scenarios with such built-in surprises.
We always try to give historically credible roles, so our French were sclerotic cautious 50-somethings and all the Prussians were aggressive young things. (We had one aggressive awkward old cuss who would have been an ideal Steinmetz but he was needed as an umpire). In any scenario there is usually an attacker and a defender so it is fairly easy to decide which units are on the board and which ones are represented by a flock covered counter.
The Prussians had played before so knew that the situation could change with time. As it happens our Guard commander was overcome with admiration at the way the 'gotcha' moment played out, as well as being impressed that we were able to paint the picture so well.
Interestingly, on the other flank, at the Mance Ravine, our well-posted Frenchman was so alarmed by Steinmetz that he demanded - and got- some of the Guard, thus ensuring that it was not available when the crisis at St Privat occurred. With 4 players each side and 4 umpires there was a lot of room for misunderstanding, which of course would never happen in real life!
Sounds marvelous. Bravo!
The original game Holdfast is referring to is on the forum thread FPW Battle of Gravelotte-St Privat dating back to 2010. Sorry, I am not technical enough to post a link!
Mollinary
Well remembered. But I cannot believe it was 5 years ago.
Our Mance Ravine was a 'special' from Keith Warren and was spectacular.
Aha, found it. Gorgeous game. Wish I'd been there!
Quote from: holdfast on 13 March 2016, 08:04:31 PM
I am late to this discussion, but I wonder why anyone, let alone a Frenchman, would try to dig a shell scrape with his mess tin or bayonet when he had a solid 4 foot wall already made. The other advantage of using the existing walls is that you do not offer a view of newly turned chalk to the Prussians. So the Prussians think that the French line ends before St Privat, because the turned soil ends there.
When we played it we had a 16 feet by 5 feet table so using 'To the last gaiter button' we could play the whole frontage from the Mance Ravine to way north of Roncourt. We put the first 3 French corps out on the table at the start but we did not put the 6th Corps out. The impetuous Prussian player commanding the Guard, who was in his late 20s so had neither the time nor the inclination to research what actually happened, concluded that by attacking St Privat he would be able to turn the French flank. It does need some umpires and hidden unit markers to achieve this but our outcome was eerily similar to the reality.
I seem to recall that Henry Hyde took a lot of photos that may well still be on his website.
When I was there in 2004 with RH we walked the entire frontage of 6th corps, the village only accounts for a short stretch of the line albeit a strong one. You can't put an entire corps in a village. As I recall the line stretched leftwards along an unmetaled farm track, through StP and then to the right toeards Roncourt. That they didn't entrench either of the open parts of the line was partly due to the absence of engineers (and who needs them :P ) also Canrobert who's 'Beau Sabreur' nature wasn't at one with the realities of the day, while his corps was being demolished he rode up to one hard pressed unit and shouted something fatuous like' Where else should a Frenchman be but here today' blah blah. Scrapes would be preferable to nothing, the Prussian guns couldn't 'drop' their shells (no howitzers) and in all likelihood would have suffered from overshooting, this was a lesson not learned until well into WWI. A scrape is better than nothing, with effort and a couple of hours the position could have been greatly improved. If Canrobert had moved the exposed part of his line further back to the crest, better still.
I seem to recall that the wicked Prusskies had air burst shells so that most of the French who were prone in shell scrapes got wounded in the back. While if you are standing up you present a far smaller target. Not just wicked Prusskies but wicked Prussky gunners, the very worst sort as we all know.
Noooooooooooooooooooo, no air burst capability.
Later: While if you are standing up you present a far smaller target - you're winding me up aren't you !