Hi Everyone,
I've got another question for you, I'm wondering if anyone has either period or current photos of the farms on the battlefields of Gravelotte-St. Privat... so these would be Moskou, Leipsic, Saint Hubert and so forth? I've looked and looked and I can't find anything for such important locations!
Thanks
-Pat
I'll be surprised if one or more of the gang can't to help you there, Pat.
Cheers - Phil
Google maps street view (I'll look in my old photos later to see what's there). Moscow is a fairly ordinary farm (having driven through it). Try the Timecast boys?
Here's a photo of Moscow farm in the distance:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike081.jpg)
Pretty substantial as a defensive point.
I think they were reduced to rubble and rebuilt post 1870. Contemporary descriptions suggest they were stone built not brick, and of robust construction. I doubt whether they were of any interest pre 1870 and after would have been in ruins. I'll have a look in my Cassell's history tonight (1000s of illustrations/photos) and let you know.
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the comments and offers to look into some old books for images! :)
Leman, I'm jealous that you got to tour the sites! I was looking at your photobucket collection Amazing collection.
I've found this one painting, entitled Das Lauenburgische Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 9 bei Gravelotte by Ernst Zimmer:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/LJB9_-_Zimmer.jpg
By chance I found another site that claims to identify the Jaeger officer with the sword raised high on the right side of the image (text in german): https://www.ratzeburg.de/index.phtml?La=1&mNavID=1.100&object=tx%7C1281.2182.1&kat=&kuo=1&sub=0
Now I'm pretty sure that's the farmstead of Chantrenne which is near the memorial for the 9th Jaeger and in the background is Vernville. Gotta love Google Earth and I'm so thankful for this old small paper map that lists the battles around Metz which has this tissue paper overlay showing the memorials
If it's Chantrenne that's a start to finding images of the illusive farms of St. Privat-Gravelotte!
Hi Oaf!
You are absolutely correct, well worked out. It was only last year that I finally managed to put together this picture and the ground come to that identification. The painting is done from pretty close to the monument of the 9th Jagers, and the farm is indeed Chantrenne. It has changed a bit, but it is still recognisable. The painting is quite often miscaptioned as the Prussian attack on St Privat, which doesn't help!
There is another painting, by Rochling, showing the death of Major Hadeln (sometimes spelt Halden), the original of which is on display in the new Museum of the Annexation in Gravelotte. It shows he Prussians charging up the road having emerged from the Mance Ravine. Behind the Major is a large farm, (Ithink, from memory, the Point du Jour, which no longer exists). There are also a number of post battle photographs on display in the museum. perhaps dropping them an e mail might be worth a try? I know there is a photo of Mosou farm after the battle which makes it look like a massive brick fortress, no obvious roofs, just walls.
Good luck with the search, I will continue to see what I can find to help.
Mollinary
If you look at the farm of Champenois on Google Earth (outside Ammevilles, tragically not occupied) it gives you a fairly good idea of what farms were like, as does Tronville, which wasn't fought over
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.1548312,6.0260775,3a,75y,160.71h,80.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdVFpkx-yY9tpQZom0M8tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.0841057,5.9208249,3a,75y,108.42h,89.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D189.91774%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: mad lemmey on 09 February 2016, 10:38:36 AM
If you look at the farm of Champenois on Google Earth (outside Ammevilles, tragically not occupied) it gives you a fairly good idea of what farms were like, as does Tronville, which wasn't fought over
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.1548312,6.0260775,3a,75y,160.71h,80.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdVFpkx-yY9tpQZom0M8tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.0841057,5.9208249,3a,75y,108.42h,89.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D189.91774%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Hi Lemmey,
Not sure what you mean by "tragically not occupied" . Do you mean today, or during the battle? It didn't look unoccupied when we went there last summer. During the battle it was originally occupied by the French, who were evicted from it by the Hessians. There is a colour postcard, (I think by Rochling, but I am not sure) showing the incident. The card is one of a series showing incidents from the FPW, and the series goes out of its way to show scenes involving non Prussian troops.
Mollinary
Quote from: Oat on 08 February 2016, 09:16:17 PM
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the comments and offers to look into some old books for images! :)
Leman, I'm jealous that you got to tour the sites! I was looking at your photobucket collection Amazing collection.
I've found this one painting, entitled Das Lauenburgische Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 9 bei Gravelotte by Ernst Zimmer:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/LJB9_-_Zimmer.jpg
By chance I found another site that claims to identify the Jaeger officer with the sword raised high on the right side of the image (text in german): https://www.ratzeburg.de/index.phtml?La=1&mNavID=1.100&object=tx%7C1281.2182.1&kat=&kuo=1&sub=0
Now I'm pretty sure that's the farmstead of Chantrenne which is near the memorial for the 9th Jaeger and in the background is Vernville. Gotta love Google Earth and I'm so thankful for this old small paper map that lists the battles around Metz which has this tissue paper overlay showing the memorials
If it's Chantrenne that's a start to finding images of the illusive farms of St. Privat-Gravelotte!
Hi Oat, even without the signature the painting is recognisably by Zimmer, as usual its all a bit staged, the slightly wooden 'officer pose' coming up again and again however from what I've seen of his work he's usually on the money with the unit and the terrain (see his painting of the Svib).
Andrew, do you have a link for the Rochling you mentioned ?
This is interesting, left you click on regimentsgeschichte and 1858-71, and scroll down until you see a black and white sketch of the attack, and then click on that, a Rochling comes up, actually quite a bit comes up, on the guards attack on St Privat.
http://erstes-garderegiment.de/indexalt.htm
Quote from: cameronian on 09 February 2016, 11:59:24 AM
Andrew, do you have a link for the Rochling you mentioned ?
I just googled Major von Hadeln and the first two images to come up were the picture.
Mollinary
Mistype, damned phone, meant occupied not unoccupied!
It was held by the French for a long time, who sniped the nearby Hessian artillery, it was ages before the Hessians occupied it!
Ah that one, never been too sure of it I must say. If my memory serves me shouldn't Point du Jour be ahead of them and to their right (our left), the building to their left (our right) is more likely to be St Hubert, n'est pas? Also - again from memories of 2005 - shouldn't there be a lot more foliage on that part of the road as it emerges from the Mance, I recall it was quite dense.
Yes, it could be St Hubert, but you cannot rule out either of the locations on your criteria. I have the original German Staff History map in front of me and Point du Jour was on the same side of the road as St Hubert, after the road had jagged towards the south. In 1870 the woods did not progress so far up the slope on the French side at the site of the crossing of the ravine, so should not figure in this whichever of the two it is. But that picture you've dug up (which I haven't seen before) certainly looks similar to the buildings in the Hadeln painting so, as so often in researching this period, you pays yer money and takes yer choice!
Mollinary
I've always thought of PDJ as being to the right of St Hubert (going up the hill) but then the road kinks sharply to the right further up so it could be to the right of St Hubert but also on the same side of the road - if you see what I mean. I'm pretty certain that's St Hubert (both a farm and an Auberge) behind them. I haven't read my Howard for a few years but I thought they got stuck pretty much where your Major Hadeln got shot, did they get as far as PDJ before the glorious rout later that evening?.
Yes, I see what you mean, and yes it is both to the right and on the same side of the road! Having just re-read the German Staff History I am now convinced you are right, and the building is St Hubert Farm. Well done!
Mollinary
Merci.
Lovely to see all the replies and enthusiasm with this topic!
It's definitely been helpful too.
-Pat
And that's without Le Manchou...
Quote from: Oat on 10 February 2016, 01:01:53 AM
Lovely to see all the replies and enthusiasm with this topic!
It's definitely been helpful too.
-Pat
We love it ;D
Keeping on the hunt, I found the following fascinating site. www.military-photos.com It has an index in English, and a vast collection of amazing photos of uniforms etc. One section, late on, is titled The Glory moments of the French Army. Within this section is one on 1870, and within that one on the defence of St Hubert farm. It contains a wonderful near contemporary (if I read it correctly, taken the day after it was captured) photo of the farm close to. As I googled ferme st Hubert Gravelotte and looked at images I found one at www.delcampe.net which is a view across the ravine towards St Hubert. It is late nineteenth, early twentieth century, based on the clothes of the onlookers. It shows the road rising towards the farm, and you can clearly see the quarries on the other side of the road, and a monument on the plateau above. The key thing in this photo is how light is the tree cover in this area compared to the present day.
Thanks for asking the question Oaf, I am really enjoying the search!
Mollinary
tried to register but some bastard is already using leman and I ain't changing!
Hi Leman,
If you are talking about delcampe.net you don't have to register, simply search for ferme st Hubert Gravelotte and it will bring up loads of postcards. You don't have to register for the other site either. Curiously, when I go direct to delcampe I cannot find the image which is there when I google! ?
Mollinary
Thanks Mollers, the Mance causeway 2006:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike068.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike069.jpg)
All the woods are very much more overgrown than 1870, the buildings in Gravelotte that face the ravine are pocked with bullet holes!
The ravine for Wedel's charge at Vron is the same.
It's because the trees used to be pollarded for firewood.
Ah for the days before climate change.
Thanks Leman,
I was there again last summer, and it hasn't changed much. We did some wandering up to the Moscou plateau through the woods on the north side of the road, and the climb is steep and rocky as you make your way through the old quarry. The way up is only really passable because the Germans made a stone pathway up to the monument of regiment No 67, right at the crest, just before it opens out. It really is a great battlefield to explore.
Mollinary
QuoteIt's because the trees used to be pollarded for firewood.
Another thing to note is that hedges used to be maximum 4' high, as that was the tallest that a standing man could cut them to. With mechanisation hedges are another couple of feet taller and therefore significantly alter lines of sight.
Thinking of how much trees grow, there are some photos of an old quarry near to where I live from the turn of the century, where the quarry edges are covered by mere saplings. Now they are semi mature trees and you cannot see the quarry sides anymore. It shows you how much a landscape can change in a small amount of time.
This is good stuff, now, does any one have a photo of Point du Jour, does anyone know what it actually was (not trick question, I haven't a clue nor have I been able to turn anything up).
It was to the far right wasn't it? Or left if you are French.... If it ever existed as a recognisable settlement it was described as a homestead, I've seen it in about three different positions on the map, I assume it was off in the modern day woods to the far left as the ravine turns as Verge's Brigade of V corps under Frossards II Corp as detached to hold the area , with support from the fortress guns of Metz.... I assume it fairly comprehensively levelled and torched, contemporary report suggest French soldier's bodies were found inside.
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,243935536,var,GRAVELOTTE-Cimetiere-Militaire-du-Point-du-Jour-Gravelotte-1870-belle-cpa-bon-etat-voir-scans,language,E.html
En Francais https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelotte
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yXRPAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=pont+du+jour+gravelotte&source=bl&ots=GkQnDHar_6&sig=rQoSMhTZn2InZg55amSL-Pq49go&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfyqPyxO_KAhWJnBoKHZBYB98Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage&q=pont%20du%20jour%20gravelotte&f=false
And one of those oh so accurate maps!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5z6NTY2YxR8C&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=pont+du+jour+gravelotte&source=bl&ots=SvpwZuF5Ib&sig=6wZAp5VPJILQJ0v8RmBw9S8y4Ds&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfyqPyxO_KAhWJnBoKHZBYB98Q6AEIJjAE#v=onepage&q=pont%20du%20jour%20gravelotte&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XdgLAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=pont+du+jour+gravelotte&source=bl&ots=nOyo8w3D3A&sig=0mvdlPOg6hH42XJZtDEMoWtESZU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfyqPyxO_KAhWJnBoKHZBYB98Q6AEILjAH#v=onepage&q=pont%20du%20jour%20gravelotte&f=false
If you have a look on the www.military-photos.com site just below the little piece on St Hubert is one on Point de Jour. it contains a detailed little map which describes Point du Jour as a "ferme" and shows a number of buildings at the point where the old and new Metz-Verdun roads diverge. One of the accounts of the fighting talks of the "maisons" of the Point de Jour so it would appear to have more than one house. Not seen any photos of this one, the Prussians seem to have been stopped about 100-200 metres short of it. From a defensive point of view it would seem to have benefited from the turn of the new main road to the south, which meant the ditches on either side provided ready made trenches. The reason many of the farms are considerably different today (or non existent as in this case) is actually the heavy fighting here in 1944.
Mollinary
Great site, thank you.
There are also some VERY impressive German bunkers on the track up to the Moscou farm! ;)
Hotly fought over would be an understatement in these parts...
Hey everyone,
Excellent discussion. I just wanted to share with you this amazing flikr account that I found. Whoever this person is, is well tops in my book. They have so many rare photos of 1870 and of the farms and battles around gravelotte st Privat.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bmmetz/albums/72157643399744963
The quality is outstanding, the images are huge and detailed. For example you can make out clear as day all the loop holes in this photo that's taken from the read of Saint Hubert by the looks of it!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bmmetz/13621421835/in/album-72157643399744963/
If you can't tell, I'm excited about this find
-Oat
Brilliant find Oat! 8)
Will have to return to these as they are taking a monumental length of time to load.
Excellent collection! It even includes the Moscou ferme photo that I referred to in an earlier post.
Mollinary
Wow, some amazing photos there!
Just shows how much the Mainz ravine has become overgrown.
Just looked at the photos taken around Metz, and found the one showing the entrance to the Engineers HQ. Here is the photo of it which I took in 2006.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike127.jpg)
That flikr find was totally by accident, I searched for Ferme Saint Hubert 1870 or so and there it was!
Leman, I'm jealous that you got to see that. Gorgeous monument
-Pat
It is the entrance of the French engineers HQ, shown in the 1870 photo, and is still the entrance today.
Very nice, I stayed in the old arsenal - now a hotel - in 2005 when I was on tour with Richard Holmes, happy days.
That sunshine reminds me that we ate all our evening meals outside.
Were you on the 2005 tour also ?
I went twice, with the Timecast boys. First time was for the beer and cheese, walked Vob Bredlow's death ride and the march of the Guard on Saint Privat...
Been hooked ever since!
Be nice to get back on the table this week. :D
More surgery ?
:D
Brain implant for me at last!
So they've found a compatible chicken, saints be praised !!
;D
No I was on a self-guided tour with my brother and a regular opponent friend of mine in 2006. All three of us play FPW in a variety of scales, but the common link is that we all have 10mm FPW armies in our collections.
That would be good fun, tours are great but expensive.
Quote from: cameronian on 13 February 2016, 01:10:25 PM
So they've found a compatible chicken, saints be praised !!
;D
Same brain as a T-Rex, bit advanced for me. I was hoping for a budgie!!
My brother did all the booking for us. It was June half-term holiday and he did it so flights, hotel and hire car came to less than £600 each for the week. With food and drink and petrol thrown in it worked out at just under £800 for me.
We did chunnel crossing, food, petrol and cheep as chips hotels for about £250 each!