There is a thread on TMP concerning fhe display of the remains of the Hanoverian soldier found in the recent clearances of the Waterloo battlefield in the new Waterloo Museum. How do forum members view this? Putting my cards on the table, I can see no reason why the actual body needs to be displayed, rather than given a decent burial. There is a similar display at the Le Caillou farm where Napoleon spent the night before the battle.
Mollinary
Give it a decent burial
As a society we seem to have a contradictory attitude to those who have died. When some ones pulls up a gravestone we call it desecration. This has not even disturbed the person buried there.
When the remains of WW1 or WW2 soldiers are found we then reverently and carefully remove them and rebury them properly (quite correctly).
We are happy to display "Mummies" in museum . Often with the burial cloths removed showing skin and hair etc. We keep "archaeological" Human remains - often complete sets of bones for both research and display in museums all around the world.
So what is the difference? At what point after death do human remains change from something to be treated with reverence to something to be mauled and treated as a curiosity?
Not sure I have a consistent view on this but some thoughts are:
Considering the current costs of burials and cremations it seems to me humans become a commodity pretty much the instant they breathe their last.
It doesn't matter to the dead what happens to them because ... well they're dead.
The bodies of those with relatives who remember them deserve reverence for the sake of the living.
Displaying corpses seems ghoulish to me and pandering to our baser human natures, especially in an era where realistic simulacra could be created where display was felt to be educational.
Scientific study of the dead I tend to approve of and we do seem to be learning a great deal about prehistoric and early historical subjects as a result of scientific research. I see no need to satisfy prurient interest by doing these things in public however.
As with all ethical questions this becomes complicated fast.
Is a greater good served by displaying (or studying) these remains? I would want to hear that argument first.
(And here I am assuming that this individual can not be tied to any living relative)
Without that argument being sustained, I think our own humanity requires a respectful burial (or other disposal) of these human remains.
Ithoriel's thoughts seem very similar to mine on the matter :-\
There are also a number of different cultural perspectives on this and the culture of the deceased must be taken into consideration
In my view public display of the actual body is unnecessary, discreet study is useful
When I die, please mince up any remains not useful to science or medicine, and chuck 'em in a trout stream during the off season.
QuoteWhen I die, please mince up any remains not useful to science or medicine, and chuck 'em in a trout stream during the off season.
Well that is trout off the menu then!
Unfortunately, there is a certain ghoulish pleasure derived by some people from looking at actual remains; mainly these are the types that watch the Saw, Hostel and other like film franchises and think they are great entertainment. Therefore, real remains are the next step up.
On the other side, more compassionate, considerate and sensitive people would say that this is morbid and should not be seen.
It depends on your personal idea of morals. In general, people today are so distanced from death that -apart from the sanitized burial or cremation of a family member- the closest they will ever come is the pictures and footage on tv of war zones. These are the ones who are most likely to be shocked and maybe even a little disturbed at such closeness to reality.
Personally, I don't find it grotesque or anything like that because I like to think of myself as a reasonably well read and educated individual who knows the effects and after effects of war and can therefore rationalise these things. However, in saying that, I don't really think that displaying the actual remains makes any kind of point that maybe a photograph or even a facsimile couldn't make. My take would be to give the remains a decent burial and leave it at that.
A good idea?
Remains to be seen I guess
Sorry :(
Quote from: Fenton on 23 January 2016, 09:56:52 AM
A good idea?
Remains to be seen I guess
A brilliant use of language, Fenton :)
The French have a tradition of ossuaries where the bones of the dead are displayed. This does not faze them at all whereas we find it a bit strange. Would not be surprised if this is not unusual in Belgium. We do have an unfortunate tendency in this country of assuming our traditions and way of life is the norm and the rest of the world is out of step. Even worse when we then try to impose our norms on others.
You learn something every day :)
As I suggested above an important question is what is the Hanoverian tradition :-\
Quote from: Leman on 23 January 2016, 05:00:50 PM
The French have a tradition of ossuaries where the bones of the dead are displayed. This does not faze them at all whereas we find it a bit strange. Would not be surprised if this is not unusual in Belgium. We do have an unfortunate tendency in this country of assuming our traditions and way of life is the norm and the rest of the world is out of step. Even worse when we then try to impose our norms on others.
Well if its not unusual in Belgium, i still haven't seen it!
Personally, i think they should give the chap a proper burial.
At the risk of posting foul language, I'll simply say:
If possible do a DNA test to identify him and inform any relatives, and then give the poor sod a decent burial.
For what it's worth:
We make monuments to remember the fallen, even if their bodies are never found, and make simbolic graves to accomodate their memory.
And then when we actually find someone who has been missing for so long, instead of giving him a proper burial and grave, we are going to display him!
Think about that...
Quote from: petercooman on 25 January 2016, 09:42:53 PM
For what it's worth:
We make monuments to remember the fallen, even if their bodies are never found, and make simbolic graves to accomodate their memory.
And then when we actually find someone who has been missing for so long, instead of giving him a proper burial and grave, we are going to display him!
Think about that...
Exactly. Chuffin' awful!
Along these lines.....
I was having a somewhat morbid discussion with Mrs T, today.
As far as I'm concerned, Mrs T is to dispose of me in the absolute cheapest way possible..(That's if I go first....Mrs T has the same philosophy)..If that means asking one of the local farmers to use his tractor, to dig a hole that I can be dropped into, in one of our fields, that's fine by me.
If the local council object....I've told Mrs T to refuse to do anything and let the council get rid of me, and pay for it themselves.
As far as I'm concerned...Once I've gone...I'm just a lump of decaying protein.
Being in Wales, apparently, any of my organs can be harvested, without asking permission......Good luck with that ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D...But they're welcome to them...I can't imagine any bits of me that'll be ANY use to anyone else.
Cheers - Phil
Even cheaper if you have yourself composted mate! No fuel bill for the digger! ;)
If I go into a hole in the field, Will...That's what I'll be doing. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 27 January 2016, 01:57:01 PMBeing in Wales, apparently, any of my organs can be harvested, without asking permission......
Baking powder? :o
No...Sorry.....Explain ! (As long as it's not rude......Otherwise PM me, if it is.))
I just don't get that one.
Cheers - Phil.
Baking Powder, as in "Beg-your-pardon?" :D
Oh !
Ta.
Cheers - Phil
Sorry, I thought he said particularly nasty weather.
About ten to eight, here.
Cheers - Phil
So am I. let's have a cup of tea.
No...No need....I'm fine.
Had one just before I let the dogs out.
Cheers - Phil
Wha?
Who let the dogs out?
Phil did ?
Yep !......And I had to wander round about 6 acres of muddy fields at 7:30 this morning (in the dark) to find the wretched 'puppy'...'Cos he'd disappeared. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
(True)
I find it SO difficult to say "Good boy".....For coming back.....When I want to shout at him and tell him he's a complete and utter .......Erm.......Oik !
(I've found the dog whistle now......That'll help.)
Cheers - Phil