We had a trial game last night where we left the damage on units just to see how it played. Brave little Belgians v the Hun 1000pt encounter. The game ended a lot quicker and was a lot more bloodier than normal. The 1000pt game being played by experienced BKC players lasting about 85 mins including set up. I'm now sold on the idea of leaving damage on as fellow forum users have suggested. Usually the Belgians struggle against panzers but this time I felt like I had a tiny chance. My little FT-17s are chucking out AT firepower of 1 at 20cm! So leaving a successful hit on a Panzer II was moral boosting.
The biggest winner was leaving damage on infantry units. I really liked it. It takes so long to eliminate infantry requiring 6 hits to kill. It felt like I was really causing ongoing damage and wearing down the German infantry platoons.
One idea that came to mind is a roll save to all non-armoured and non-fortification protected units? Just a raw 6. Just to give that extra hope and not much of a chance of survival? The extra step may draw out out a game a little bit longer but if damage is left on as a BKCIII game mechanic it may bring balance?
Just a thought for discussion and everyone should give leaving damage on a try in your next game and let the forum know what how you found it.
Cheers
Paul.
I don't know what this forum is coming to. Tests, evidence and thought brought to a discussion :o ;) ;D ;D
We tend to play mid-war Eastern Front, so perhaps that accounts for the difference, and we found infantry and lightly armoured units melted like snow off a dyke under the weight of incoming fire. That's why we started removing some of the hits at the end of the turn, to give these units a little more survivability. Two hits for veterans, none for conscripts and one for everyone else. First hit point lost is never recovered.
It encourages players to pull units back to "rally and recover" and stops the end game being a duel between Tigers and Panthers on one side and KV's on the other.
That's quite a neat mechanism Ithoriel - consider it nicked [:D]
Not a bad idea. We might give that a try next game. Are you handling the heavier tanks in the same way?
Yep, tanks are basically part of "everyone else" so regain one hit per turn and can never regain their last hit point once lost. This represents stunned/ wounded crew returning to action, stuck things being hit with a hammer, minor things like vision blocks being replaced, etc.
Sunjester and I discussed the very same mechanism on Wednesday, including 'First Hit stays'.
I was mulling this and came up with an evolution - I don't expect it to be massively popular because it's extra work and tracking.
Hits stay on, you put a dice by the side, and that slowly reduces - lets call that the white dice
You have a second dice, let's call it Red.
At the end of the turn you remove one from the White.
If it is ONE more (EXACTLY) than the Red, the red goes up by one.
The White Dice can never go below the Red dice, and teh White die is the starting point for further hits
So Unit with 6 hits
Takes 3 - White 3
Reduces to 2
Then next turn to 1
1 is exactly ONE more than the current red dice of Zero, so you put the Red die on set to One
Hits come in - White goes to 5.
Loses one per turn until it gets to 2
White=2. 2 is Red+1, so Red goes to 2. The White dice, the actual "HITS" can never be reduced below 2, as this is the Red value
Next turn it takes one hit.
End of turn it reduces to 2. 2 ISN'T Red+1, so Red stays on 2, BUT white can't reduce lower.
So
1) Your unit gets more and more fragile over time
2) Just 1 Hit when you are at your current minimum on the White actually has no long term effect.
I REALISE THE PROBLEMS - YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SECOND MARKER PER UNIT TO LUG AROUND. However, Leon, think of it as a minibit opportunity to sell dice frames!
Looks like a solution searching for a problem to me, LH. Even with our "recovering hits" mechanism more things die than ever recover to "max hits -1." Still, it's nice to see people coming up with possible new mechanisms and other people may be keener than I.
I throw a lot of things out there, just to see where it leads. I know a lot won't be practical, but sometimes they inspire something. People forget that not every idea has to be perfect immediately, and it stymies creativity tominsist every thing must go somewhere.
I did cover it with caveats for the less imaginative and forward thinking. =)
Absolutely LH, that's why I thought it was good to see ideas being put forward and, as I said, the fact I don't immediately take to it doesn't mean that others won't.
With "early war"/AVBCW we've found infantry are already quite resilient due to relatively small games and low levels & effectiveness of arty & AFVs.
However by mid to late war those six hits no save get munched very rapidly. A measly twelve arty dice in the open or eighteen in cover (two stonks) will kill them, on average, stone dead in two command rolls. In contrast once AFVs get to the 4 hits, 5+ save level they start to get hard to knock out in comparison, and woe betide trying to knock out the monsters!
What we've done is use a simple rule for hits stay on for AFVs ONLY; means early AFVs are temperamental & fragile but work ok with the relatively low levels of AT weapons, whilst the bigger mid to late war stuff can still get "attrited away" over a couple of turns making infantry sturdier in comparison as you just need to get them out the way for a minute to recover, reform and then go back in.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 23 October 2015, 12:39:09 AM
I throw a lot of things out there, just to see where it leads. I know a lot won't be practical, but sometimes they inspire something. People forget that not every idea has to be perfect immediately, and it stymies creativity tominsist every thing must go somewhere.
I did cover it with caveats for the less imaginative and forward thinking. :d
After leaving the damage on for a few games I have decided its actually better to take it off. Main reason, everything dies too easy.
So from play testing the idea, I think the current system of removing damage is a better game mechanic.
My morale tests for an army that might be wavering include the possibility of recovering a few casualties if enough factors are favourable. Again, on the rationale of having slightly wounded resolving to return to the ranks, dismounted men finding a new horse, an inspiring local speech to stiffen the upper lip, etc. And again, not enough to make any army indestructible.
I still prefer hits stay on, but then that works for me and my friends.
Another option is remove 3 hits at the end of each turn, so units that have taken a real pasting but survived will be more vulnerable in the next turn. :-\
Late to the game on this topic - but I've always played with hits staying on. As soon as I read the rules for the first time and I saw that option, I ran with it. Though I do like the idea of recovering some of them based on veteran level.
Hi, welcome to the forum ... erm ... do I know you well enough to call you Itinerant or should it be Mr Hobbyist on first meeting? :)
Since the forum tends to be relaxed, friendly and oddball by turns, I'll go with "Hi, IH!"
I've played all hits come off, all hits stay on and removal of some hits depending on troop quality and have to say that each has it's benefits and problems so pick whichever works for you and those you play with.
Cheers!
One of the advantages with *Commander is it's relative simplicity and lack of needing to track things turn to turn (suppression being the only exception); this is why I've never been very happy with any of the various suggestions for hits stay on.