Okay, this is going to be a numpty question I know, but I seem to be having a hard time getting my head around the whole Unit size -> Cost -> no of bases concept. I could use some help.
From the BkCII rulebook:
QuoteQuoteUnits, Formations & Battlegroups
Each miniature (or stand of miniatures if they are mounted on bases) is referred to as a Unit. A unit represents a platoon of infantry or vehicles, or a battery of guns, when playing the game at the regimental or divisional level. Whilst this is a more abstract level of play, it does allow you to fight larger battles without needing loads of miniatures. However, you can also play games at the company or battalion level by simply stating that each unit represents a squad of infantry, or a single vehicle or gun. This gives a realistic simulation where what you see on the table is what you get in real life. Some conflicts lend themselves to this level of play, whereas others lend themselves to the higher level.
So my first question is: what scale of game do people commonly play? Regimental/Divisional or Company/Battalion? As I'm intending to use the rules for AVBCW I'm thinking that the second is more suitable.
Assuming that I'm going with 50 x 25 mm bases with 5 figures to a base, what organizational unit should the represent? And how many should I typically have per command base? And what impact does that choice have on support and armour bases?
And finally, how does one cost out this level of game? I want to try and get reasonably balanced forces so using the points costs is probably the sensible thing to do, especially as my two proposed forces are going to be made up of differing quality of troops.
As I said, numpty question. I blame being away from the hobby for so long. That and
way too much coffee when I was younger. I'm convinced I fried my brain around the turn of the millennium.
As always, all help gratefully appreciated.
- Neil.
The basic unit in the game is a single stand of figures. The number of figures has no impact on the game mechanics.
Its up to you if the stand represents a section/squad or a platoon. For VBCW a stand representing a section is probably going to give you the right look, as most actions will be fairly small scale. For WWII games we tend to use 1 stand = 1 platoon - but I am fairly sure we play games were some of the players are working on 1:1 scaling and others on 1:platoon at the same time.
With 1 stand representing a section, this would mean that each vehicle stand represents 1 vehicle. Support weapons would then likely be 1 per base, perhaps 2 for MGs and mortars.
1500 pts is probably a decent sized game - especially for early war kit where tanks are cheap, and you are likely to have a lot of infantry. To start with you may be better deciding on what one side looks like, then pointing it up, and then building the opposition to that points total.
The number of stands to a HQ is not fixed. For high quality formations more HQs gives them more flexibility, but they spend more points on HQs compared to fighting troops. Fewer HQs better represent larger less mobile formations. Anywhere from 3 fighting stands per HQ up to 12 is probably fine.
Actual scale per figure is pretty much irrelevant, IMHO. Whatever works for you. Depends how big you thikn VBCW units are I guess.
I use 1 stand = 1 platoon. So three stands to a company.
We've tended to play around 1500 - 1750 points a side. Occasional mega-games have seen much bigger forces per player.
For Kursk-era Germans my default would be a CO, a CV8 or 9 HQ, 6 - 9 infantry stands, 2 MG stands, a mortar stand, one or two 75mm A/T guns, a company of 3 x PzIII 50mm lang or PzIV 75mm lang. Rest of the force would vary depending on the opponent and terrain I was expecting but would probably include some or all of transport, an FAO and artillery, more tanks/ StuGs, another HQ, etc.
Thanks both, really useful info.
I'm currently thinking 3 stands per HQ. Each stand represents a squad, so 3 stands a platoon. Going to be flexible and say either 3 infantry or 2 infantry and 1 MG. Max 3 MG stands total per side.
Extrapolating from there, 9 stands equals a company and I would expect to field approximately two companies per side plus appropriate support and one CO base. Possibly less. I have limited playing space available most of the time, so don't want to go crazy. And if I start small I can always add on later.
Not even considering cavalry at this point!
Now I have my head around this bit, I can start applying point costs. Will probably post my list here to get it sanity checked.
- Neil.
Greetings
I think if you go for 1 HQ per 3 infantry you'll have far too many HQs and far too much flexibility - typically one would have (at squad representation) an HQ and say 9 infantry stands representing 3 platoons of 3 sections if the units are operating on 1938 War Establishment.
If earlier one option would be to build a unit using WE II/1931/12A/1 from 1936 for a mixed battalion (see http://www.warestablishments.net/Great%20Britain/Infantry/Infantry%20(Mixed)%20Battalion%20July%201936.pdf ) which had 3 rifle companies each of an HQ and 4 platoons each of a 3 man HQ and 4 sections of 8 men of which 2 sections have a Lewis LMG. The battalion had enough Boys ATR authorised for one per platoon. The HQ wing and support company were authorised 3 2pdr guns in an AT platoon, 12 Vickers MMG and 4 3" mortars. I have no idea which units, if any, would have adopted this WE.
Regards
Edward
Ah, too many HQs = too many chances to take actions. Okay, need to think on this some more.
Time to go back and re-read the rules again.
- Neil.
Broadly speaking I play at Battalion level, so a stand equates to an infantry platoon. So for me a fairly typical Battalion will be:
2 x HQ
9 - 12 Infantry units
2 - 3 MG support units
1 - 3 Mortar support units
1 Infantry Gun supprt unit
1 anti-tank gun support unit
The Germands tend to be the ones with the higher number of MG and mortar units, with the British no infantry gun units. Hope this helps?
Having noodled this over breakfast, here's where I'm at:
BUF
1 HQ
6 stands Infantry (militia) - equating to 2 platoons
No MGs
Royalists
1 HQ
3 platoons made up of:
2 stands Infantry (regular)
1 stand MG
1 CO
I'm going to cost that formation out and then figure out what the Anglicans can get, considering all their troops will be militia quality at best. I'm using Nik's army lists for the points cost. I may well limit MGs to two, but that will probably mean a lot more infantry, so possibly an additional HQ so that they don't all stay inactive for too long.
- Neil.
Check out the following link:
http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Battlegroups/System.aspx (http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Battlegroups/System.aspx)
Select BKCII, click 'Next' and then you can select AVBCW forces from the drop down menu.
Unfortunately I don't have access. I can knock up a spreadsheet in no time. Could probably code a custom app in a few hours, though that's a job for another time, or a task for my next group of students!
- Neil.
And here's the previously discussed spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16dTD5EQ6quJ2jh8nWGpaPmuVwAJMurkXxXdv8mGVrxU/edit?usp=sharing
Should be shared for everyone to view. Came out as a 10 point difference to the Anglicans. Currently their entire force are Militia, but I might make some Conscripts just so the entire force isn't Fragile.
Other option would be to drop 6 infantry bases, and give the Anglicans a couple of armoured card for recce, but that might add to much firepower.
I think I need to measure out a 4ft x 4ft playing space and see how crowded 16 infantry stands ans 2 MGs actually look. Now where did I put the masking tape?
- Neil.
There is free access Neil, which should allow you to see it.
Although BKC is nominally set at 1 stand = 1 platoon, for 15mm I visualise it the same as others - one stand is a squad/section/fireteam, or one vehicle. We use 6mm for general WW2 which helps with the "platoon scale" image and 10mm for AVBCW which helps with the "section level" image :D
In game terms you probably want around 6-9 units under one HQ so that you have a good spread of likely activations without over doing it. So for the AVBCW sort of stuff half a dozen infantry stands and a few support weapons - eg six infantry, two MMGs and a mortar or ATG or light field gun or armoured truck/"infantry tank" etc, as a nominal "platoon". Get three of those on the table and a "support platoon" with a few real guns or tanks and you've got a "company level" game already at probably about 1500-2000pts.
As an example, my BUM forces - Birmingham Union Militia. Trades Unionists and Working Mens defence leagues, based around ex-WW1 vets, local Terries and others who joined the cause for a real days pay for a days work and kick out the Fash. done via the Battlegroup Generator with a bit of tweaking (the AVBCW lists are always Normal Doctrine for instance, and I tweaked up the numbers of ATRs to give one per "infantry group and two to the Mobile Force and changed some names of units :)).
Gives two platoons of four militia (one with ATR), a MMG, mortar & 17pdr Field Gun and a platoon sized "Mobile Group" under the CO with the armoured trucks and the two Regular infantry with ATR's. As I envision them having the Birmingham railway and steel works and arsenals they're actually *very* well equipped with quality armoured trucks, ex-Terries/seized field guns and older LMGs, as well as new fangled but easy to make mortars and things like Boyes ATR's. The infantry is enthusiastic when things go their way but are not very flexible. The armoured crews have displayed great dash and enthusiasm and been utterly useless every game so far :D
The figures are (not to be mentioned here) Beaverettes & Armadillos (with Pendraken crew and guns on!), whilst infantry and field guns are a mix of WW1 17pdrs, SCW crews and WW1, BEF era and VBCW range figures with Lewis Guns & Lee Enfields.
We usually play either 1200pts or 1800pts as most of the BKC scenarios set the defender at 2/3rds of the attackers points and it makes the maths easier ;)
AVBCW Army, British Civil War (January 1938)
Quantity Troops Arm Move AT AP CA Hits Save Cost Notes
1 CO (CV9) CMD 60 - 3/30 - 6 6 120 [120]
2 HQ (CV8) CMD 40 - 2/30 - 4 6 60 [120]
1 Recce Unit (Beaverette) REC 20 - 1/40 2 2 6 60 [60]
8 Infantry Unit (Militia) INF 10 - 2/30 3 6 - 20 [160] #1
2 Infantry Unit (Regulars) INF 10 - 3/30 4 6 - 40 [80]
4 Infantry Upgrade (Anti-Tank Rifle) INF - 1/20 - - - - 10 [40]
2 Support Unit (MG) INF 10 - 3/60 2 5 - 40 [80]
2 Support Unit (Mortar, 81mm) INF 10 3/120 3/120 2 5 - 75 [150]
3 Tank Unit (Heavy Armoured Truck, 37mm Gun) ARM 15 1/20 1/60 2 3 5 50 [150] R
2 Artillery Support Unit (65-88mm) ART 5 2/40 3/80 2 4 - 75 [150]
2 Transport Unit (Trucks) TRN 20 - - - 3 - 15 [30] #2
2 Transport Unit (Light Armoured Truck, LMG) TRN 20 - 1/20 2 3 6 30 [60] #3 O
AT: Anti-Tank, AP: Anti-Personnel, R: Restricted, O: Open
Tactical Doctrine
Rigid tactical doctrine (15cm initiative distance; HQs may not issue orders to units in other formations, +1 CV when all units in same formation receive same order)
Note 1. Infantry Unit (Militia)
Fragile: Add one die when rolling for suppression/fall-back
Note 2. Transport Unit (Trucks)
May transport one infantry or infantry support unit, or may tow one gun
Note 3. Transport Unit (Universal Carrier)
May transport one infantry unit
Summary
Breakpoint 12
1200 points spent of 1200 points available (1200 points selected)
Hope that helps spark something useful :)
Quote from: Steve J on 16 October 2015, 11:14:06 AM
There is free access Neil, which should allow you to see it.
It needs to be activated - Pete used to do that if you emailed him and confirmed you'd bought the rules, but I guess it's in the hands of Leon now!
For those who don't fancy wandering off to Google Docs, here's my list as an attachment.
Each side has come in at just under 600pts, which for starters is just fine. My biggest concern is that 22 bases for one side might be a bit cramped on a 4ft x 4ft table, especially given the majority are 50mm x 25mm.
Going to see how this goes and take it from there.
- Neil.
I might up the quality of the Anglicans, at least for some - make a "commanders reserve" sort of thing of the their best troops (WW1 veterans, the most enthusiastic, stiffened by some regular army cadre - whatever rationale you want), so you have say two units with a HQ & six militia with a Vickers each, then three Regulars under the CO. Means the Royalist still out quality them but they have a few less units to clutter up the table with and a decent quality mini-force within their ranks.
Okay version 2:
| Unit | Number | Cost | Total Cost |
| Royalists | | | |
| CO (CV9) | 1 | 120 | 120 |
| Infantry (Regulars) | 4 | 40 | 160 |
| ISupport Unit MG | 2 | 40 | 80 |
| | | |
| BUF | | | |
| HQ (CV7) | 1 | 30 | 30 |
| Infantry (Militia) | 6 | 20 | 120 |
| | | |
| 14 | | 510 |
| Unit | Number | Cost | Total Cost |
| Anglicans | | | |
| CO (CV8) | 1 | 90 | 90 |
| Infantry (Militia) | 6 | 20 | 120 |
| Support Unit MG (Militia) | 3 | 40 | 120 |
| | | |
| HQ (CV8) | 1 | 60 | 60 |
| Infantry (Regulars) | 3 | 40 | 120 |
| | | |
| 14 | | 510 |
One rule change is to make the Anglican MG Support Units fragile, the same as their accompanying Infantry.
Updated Google Spreadsheet at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MA2Rv7RUG9WBqev6JgZHLNFiArwWeoIT2sNRZVaFobQ/edit?usp=sharing
- Neil.
That should give you plenty to get a game going with that won't take too long and is easily upgradeable :)
Decent CV's mean most should be doing something each turn, although the BUF might be best deployed somewhere the Anglicans have to fight them. No tricky things that require multiple moves ;)
Quote from: Steve J on 16 October 2015, 11:14:06 AM
There is free access Neil, which should allow you to see it.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 16 October 2015, 11:18:33 AM
It needs to be activated - Pete used to do that if you emailed him and confirmed you'd bought the rules, but I guess it's in the hands of Leon now!
Unfortunately we don't have the ability to do that, so there's currently no free access. I've looked through everything in the Admin panel of the BKC site and couldn't find any magic button for the free access, so I've always assumed it was a code hack that Pete used to do. Luckily, we've only had a handful of queries about it, as with the rules being unavailable for a while there aren't many people who hadn't already claimed it before we took over.
I suspect then it's a setting on the individual user account on the site?
My paid access expired middle of last year, for instance, but I just reverted back to "basic" free access.
Quote from: Leon on 16 October 2015, 04:39:06 PM
Unfortunately we don't have the ability to do that, so there's currently no free access. I've looked through everything in the Admin panel of the BKC site and couldn't find any magic button for the free access, so I've always assumed it was a code hack that Pete used to do. Luckily, we've only had a handful of queries about it, as with the rules being unavailable for a while there aren't many people who hadn't already claimed it before we took over.
Leon
I'd be happy to take a look if you like. Server set-up and support used to be my bread and butter until I gave it up to do training/teaching instead. These days I just look after my own servers and the site for The British Fantasy Society.
Someone will have received an enquiry from me about access earlier.
- Neil.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 16 October 2015, 04:41:38 PM
I suspect then it's a setting on the individual user account on the site?
My paid access expired middle of last year, for instance, but I just reverted back to "basic" free access.
Once it was up and running within in the site, I'd assume it'll keep going as is for each user. But looking at each person's individual profile, there's no button for me to grant them anything.
Quote from: NeilCFord on 16 October 2015, 04:45:50 PM
I'd be happy to take a look if you like. Server set-up and support used to be my bread and butter until I gave it up to do training/teaching instead. These days I just look after my own servers and the site for The British Fantasy Society.
Someone will have received an enquiry from me about access earlier.
I got your email earlier today and was about to send a similar email to my post above. People can still buy the Battlegroups as normal and that's all automated to grant you the full access, we just don't have any way of giving the free access through the BKC site.
The Battlegroups feature is being overhauled ready for the new rules, so we should have a new version of it ready to deploy early next year I'm hoping.
No worries. I have a nice little spread sheet built up now that works well. I may, as a learning exercise, write some software to allow me to build AVBCW from Nik's data. I need to design a new exercise for my students, so this would kill two birds with one stone.
- Neil.
If you've paid for the book, then you automatically get free access. If you've bought it second hand, then no.
So, following on from my first game of BKCII last week and having picked up my various figures orders at Warfare, I've tweaked my army lists a little. A revised spreadsheet can be found at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18aaZ5EgLSFg-Snpw9JJ0kIKP2MdntK-9S05kuccwTz8/edit?usp=sharing
Major changes are more infantry stands, less MG supports and and some vehicles. Have added minimal AT capability to the two sides to tackle the armour.
Going to freeze the lists for now and get on with painting and basing the figures.
- Neil.
(Added the list as a PDF attachment as well)
Well, looks a pretty good start to me Neil. The right sort of ratios of support weapons to infantry. Look forward to seeing how they come along.