Pray for me, fellow miniatures wargamers. For various reasons, I've not found the time (or the mojo) to pick up a paint brush or set down my brave wee men (and horses) on to the tabletop for some time now. Still managing to read (and visit some battlefields lately) and, of course,
waste enrich my life
away by dipping into
The One True Scale Forum and various wargaming blogs, courtesy of course of this wonderful invention (the computer / the www).
Which brings me on to the subject. You see, whilst I will always be a miniatures wargamer, I've also recently ventured into the Dark Side - computer war-games! Specifically, I'm currently nuts on a game called
Combat Mission. It suits me because it takes almost no time to set up (or halt and save to continue with the game later) and I have a ready made opponent.
Its a strategy game set in WW2. You can play it in 'real time' if you wish or 'turn based.' I opt for the latter as I don't have the reflexes for an arcade game. You command regiments, battalions, companies, squads, individual vehicles and so on. You give orders to your units, click on the red button, and for the next sixty seconds, you are powerless while the men and vehicles on screen fight it out. You can then replay the action, following the fortunes (or misfortunes) of different units all over the battlefield. Some of the action is just astounding. Very entertaining but also very tense at times as you try to outguess where the enemy is and order your men forward. You can play against a human opponent or the AI (artificial intelligence) - in my current circumstances, the AI suits me. If you play against the AI, you have a mission which you usually must complete in a set time frame - e.g., 45 minutes. However, using the turn based option, that doesn't mean to say the game only takes 45 minutes to play - by the time you try to find out where the enemy is, work out your strategy, 'give out orders' and watch the action, 1 minute's action can take any amount of time, meaning a mission can take hours, days, weeks.
Various versions of the game are available covering the campaigns in Normandy, Holland, Italy and on the Eastern Front. Being a cheapskate, I'm only playing two of the free downloadable demos, Red Thunder and Fortress Italy (actually, its also because I'm a computer dummy and I'm not sure if my laptop can cope with the full game). Now, this might sound dangerous for the miniatures industry (and yes, it is competition) but actually, its given me (a Horse & Musket fan) a greater interest in WW2 vehicles with the result that I now find myself browsing through the appropriate section in the Pendraken catalogue to see what's on offer.
Does anyone else play this game? For those who have never heard of this game, here are two of the many videos available on Youtube. Note in the first game (human v. human, turn based), the battlefield is shaped like a war-games table! (What chance have I got!). Please note, the first one is over an hour long. The second video is only about 8 minutes long and has been "cosmetically enhanced" by some computer buff but illustrates how close you can zoom into the action if you wish (hence, the sometimes almost endless replays of some of these action minutes).
I have Combat Mission, Steel Panthers, Close Combat, Theatre of War, Blitzkreig and Company of Heroes, though only the last runs on my current PC the others have to be fired up on the oldest of my working machines.
I played many games of Combat Mission by email with a couple of friends, whole new game playing against real people. I recommend it.
I was a huge Close Combat guy! "Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far" was an incredible game that gave me countless hours of joy; later volumes were pretty cool, but none matched up to CC:ABTF.
But I'm scared to mess about with any computer games. I keep looking at this (relatively) new series called "Battle Academy." But the problem is, every minute spent on computer gaming is a minute not spent on (miniature) wargaming, and I don't have very many minutes available these days.
I'd never seen Combat Mission, and I'm scared to look at the videos ;)
V/R,
Jack
Combat Mission is arguably the most accurate of all the computer games of it's type.
I've looked at Battle Academy but it's a little pricey for something I know next to nothing about.
I have the Eastern Front mod for Company of Heroes which I preferred to CoH2.
Tried World of Tanks but it didn't grab me.
As to time lost ..... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ... EVE Online (overall favourite), TERA (current fix - free to play which is handy!), Runes of Magic (also FTP but not as good an implementation as TERA imho) eat up far more time than military themed games for me. Thank goodness for retirement!
Just bought "Heroes of Normandie" on Steam for £15.17.
I love the board game but it's not always easy to get an opponent so the PC version will fill a gap.
HoN, as it is known, is very much Hollywood History but but fun and playable, IMHO of course.
The conversion is proving fairly straightforward to play, though if you've never played the board game it might take a little longer to get to grips with.
Ithoriel, I might have known you already had one foot on the Dark Side! :) :D
Seriously, very impressed with your wargaming catholicism (miniatures, computer and whatever else) and worthwhile to read your opinion on CM and how it stacks up with other games of its genre. I would imagine after exhausting all of the missions and campaign scenarios in all 4 (or is it 6 now?) fronts/theatres/game versions, an actual human opponent would be a welcome change. When you PBEM, how does that work? What is the process?
As for you, Bigjacmac - watch the videos .. @-) .. watch the videos .. @-) .. watch the videos ... :d @-) :d *
* It seems to have worked for me in a crazy alternative universe way in so much that I am now looking at the WW2 vehicles in Pendraken's product list and wondering how to paint rust and camouflage, etc.!
I play, mainly eurogame, board games with two different groups on Tuesday and Friday evenings though we do occasionally dabble in the odd Ameritrash game from time to time. Last game played was "Churchill" which models the conferences involving Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin but usually it's something a little lighter like "Settlers of Catan", "Russian Railways" or "Castles of Mad King Ludwig."
Small group of us - usually two to four - play miniatures games on a Sunday. Mainly BKC and CoC recently.
Other than that, if I'm not at the cinema or visiting my folks or out for afternoon tea, I'm playing EVE, TERA, Ascension, Ticket to Ride, Smallworld or Company of Heroes: Eastern Front on the PC.
Well and truly ensconced on the Dark Side :D
In Combat Mission PBEM works by one person issuing their orders for the next turn, emailing the file to the second player who adds their orders for the turn and mails the file back. Both players can then run the action segment where things run around, fire (or get shot!) and so on. Rinse and repeat. The game manages vehicles particularly well taking into account range, angle of strike, type of ammunition, armour quality, armour thickness and type of armour when evaluating hits, for example. Infantry tend to be rather more generic.
Off to have another go at retrieving the colonel's dog in HoN :)
Thanks, pal.
I have both combat mission and close combat (I have the first 3)
I have played Close combat a lot when i was younger, and now and then i put it on to play out a campaign. The first one i didn't like, a bridge too far is a very good one, and the 3rd one (eastern front) is great too, but different. A bridge too far can get really tense, especially when fighting at arnhem. I once had a piat team which took out 9 tanks (including a few panthers)over the course of the campaign. It was things like that that made it cool, seeing those guys do extraordinary stuff and earning their medals.
The russian front ones usually didn't last long enough to gain rep :-\ :-\
I then bought combat mission 2 and played it twice and never touched it again. Games were way to long for my taste.
Westmarcher, since you are a horse and musket fan , did you ever try cossacks?
I found Cossacks fun to begin with but got bored with it fairly quickly. I preferred Total War, which I could play against friends, to Cossacks which no-one else had.
Sid Meier's "Gettysburg" was another multi-player favourite which, as with so many of my games, won't run on my current desktop or laptop because they are too old :(
Quote from: petercooman on 03 October 2015, 06:54:25 PM
Westmarcher, since you are a horse and musket fan , did you ever try cossacks?
Cossacks? I loved that game! :x
First saw it in a computer games shop in Brussels, Peter, and had to have it. Although I still have it (and the expansion), unfortunately, because it runs on Windows 'Obsolete,' I can no longer play it. #-o My old computer died years ago and my (wife's) laptop can't play it because it runs on a more up to-date version of Windows. ~X(
But I live in hope that one day .... 8->
Ithoriel. Total War. Was that the engine they used in
Time Commanders (a TV show)? I liked that too (even though, in a formation of horse, the horses all wagged their tails in the same way at the time)..
Quote from: Ithoriel on 03 October 2015, 07:25:23 PM
I found Cossacks fun to begin with but got bored with it fairly quickly. I preferred Total War, which I could play against friends, to Cossacks which no-one else had.
Sid Meier's "Gettysburg" was another multi-player favourite which, as with so many of my games, won't run on my current desktop or laptop because they are too old :(
Quote from: Westmarcher on 03 October 2015, 07:30:57 PM
Cossacks? I loved that game! :x
First saw it in a computer games shop in Brussels, Peter, and had to have it. Although I still have it (and the expansion), unfortunately, because it runs on Windows 'Obsolete,' I can no longer play it. #-o My old computer died years ago and my (wife's) laptop can't play it because it runs on a more up to-date version of Windows. ~X(
But I live in hope that one day .... 8->
Hah the feeling of getting your ferry full of men to the shore and the enemy shooting it down Seconds before it hits the beach... I'll never forget that.
I've never bought another strategy game of that kind after that, why change if you like it :D
Quote from: petercooman on 03 October 2015, 07:35:24 PM
Hah the feeling of getting your ferry full of men to the shore and the enemy shooting it down Seconds before it hits the beach... I'll never forget that.
Yep! Been there! If you saw the ferry/troop transport heading for the shore and managed to get an artillery piece within canister range just as the ramp fell down and they charged out ....... carnage!
Quote from: Westmarcher on 03 October 2015, 07:44:04 PM
Yep! Been there! If you saw the ferry/troop transport heading for the shore and managed to get an artillery piece within canister range just as the ramp fell down and they charged out ....... carnage!
Quite nice!
I really liked that game. Formations were cool too, i was very fond of a formation of pikemen :P
That game also taught me the value of Hussars for raiding deep into enemy territory and destroying their means to wage war, i.e. economic targets such as mines, windmills (and other agricultural assets), ship yards, etc.
Well, couldn't resist and put cossacks on. Still fun :P
Yes hussars, and those cossacks you can get for cheap from the diplomatic centre :D
Jealous! Liked the formations as well. Also the only game I've seen in which, arguably, a 'war crime' was committed! One time, during the mayhem of a raid by the enemy, I looked down at a corner of the screen and saw a morion wearing musketeer shoot down an unarmed priest who was in the process of blessing him (or someone else)! :o :o
Weren't preists used to convert the enemy though? Hardly an innocent civvie!
I have the Orginal Combat Mission: Beyond overlord, which I (re)bought from Good Old Games - GOG does modern windows friendly conversions of old games, such as CM:BO and XCOM Enemy Unknown.
The orginal CM:BO is purely turn based, and can be against AI, LAN, Email or Hotseat. Also they purposly made all the graphics .bmp and all the sound .wav so people can easily drop their own mods in- later releases came with a cd full of replacement bmp and wav made by modders. When they were younger my kids loved messing around with the scenario maker just to make maps.
Played CM over the home hub with #1 son. He couldn't destroy my Sherman, and every time a team took a shot and bounce/missed, it would turn on them. I shouted up the stairs "Stop shooting the big metal box, all you're doing is annoying it."
Your own troops have AI, and will sometimes ignore orders to engage what they see as a bigger threat
Quote from: Westmarcher on 04 October 2015, 09:09:53 AM
Jealous! Liked the formations as well. Also the only game I've seen in which, arguably, a 'war crime' was committed! One time, during the mayhem of a raid by the enemy, I looked down at a corner of the screen and saw a morion wearing musketeer shoot down an unarmed priest who was in the process of blessing him (or someone else)! :o :o
I must admit that i run a newer version of windows too, that doesn't support the game (windows 7), but there was an easy fix to be found on the net, and it works flawless.
What version of windows are you using? maybe you can fix it!
Quote from: Last Hussar on 04 October 2015, 09:36:23 AM
Played CM over the home hub with #1 son. He couldn't destroy my Sherman, and every time a team took a shot and bounce/missed, it would turn on them. I shouted up the stairs "Stop shooting the big metal box, all you're doing is annoying it."
;D ;D
Quote from: Last Hussar on 04 October 2015, 09:36:23 AM
Weren't preists used to convert the enemy though? Hardly an innocent civvie!
The priests in
Cossacks could convert people? I thought all they had was healing powers. #-o
Quote from: petercooman on 04 October 2015, 11:28:46 AM
I must admit that i run a newer version of windows too, that doesn't support the game (windows 7), but there was an easy fix to be found on the net, and it works flawless.
What version of windows are you using? maybe you can fix it!
Long story. Because I used PC's in work, I was a PC 'fan.' My wife worked in education and was a Mac 'fan.' When our old PC died, she won the argument and we got a Mac. She couldn't do certain things on the Mac and then started to see the benefits of a PC so when she retired, she bought a cheap laptop PC to use for her part-time job as a union rep. She's a sweetie but I sense she's not keen on me using her PC laptop (but I managed to negotiate downloading the Combat Mission demos) so, the idea of 'mucking about' with her computer so that I have a further excuse to
waste enrich my life
away is meeting some 'resistance.' The laptop supports Windows 8.
Having said that, I carried out a preliminary reconnaissance earlier in the year and came up with this.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-run-older-programs-under-windows-8.html (http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-run-older-programs-under-windows-8.html)
But haven't pursued this further .... yet! :d :d
Was your 'solution' similarly sourced?
Nope, youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJdxEXCdLWA
:d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d
I did research it first though, but the video on youtube just shows it best.
By the way, i just popped the cossack disk back in.
And if my wife says something about it, i'm blaming you!!
Quote from: petercooman on 04 October 2015, 06:39:34 PM
By the way, i just popped the cossack disk back in.
And if my wife says something about it, i'm blaming you!!
;D ;D
Blame me if it helps.
[btw, is your wife a scary woman?] :-S
Not really! And very tolerant,since she can put up with me ;D ;D ;D
I'm not watching the videos, I have too much to paint, base, game, and write-up!
Having said that, I did download Battle Academy; not my thing...
V/R,
Jack
I'll stick to Call Of Duty on the PSP. (Only a FPS game, though.)
Like that lots...Though I haven't played it for ages.
Like all the 'missions' except the 'being a gunner' on a bomber.....Can barely hit a blanking thing on that one.
Only finished that one once, and I used so much ammo I didn't get an award. :'(
Cheers - Phil
Well shooting a moving thing from another moving thing tends to be difficult i think :o
I always thought Close Combat: Invasion Normandy was the best of the series :)
Quote from: Tawa on 05 October 2015, 06:31:15 PM
I always thought Close Combat: Invasion Normandy was the best of the series :)
Was that the one where you could pop coloured smoke on a target and watch the navy blast it to bits (in one of the beach fights)?
Yeah, I think CC Normandy was the first one you could call in air strikes too.
Man those were fun! My father and I used to play head-to head via the internet, so many tense battles, and the campaigns were fantastic.
I think now that that is where I got a lot of my ideas on how to run campaigns on my tabletop; I was always sneaking into the 'stats' pages to see how many kills a guy/team/vehicle had rung up, who had gotten what medals, etc...
It's certainly a lot cheaper than miniatures gaming ;)
V/R,
Jack
Quote from: bigjackmac on 05 October 2015, 09:18:05 PM
I think now that that is where I got a lot of my ideas on how to run campaigns on my tabletop; I was always sneaking into the 'stats' pages to see how many kills a guy/team/vehicle had rung up, who had gotten what medals, etc...
It's certainly a lot cheaper than miniatures gaming ;)
V/R,
Jack
Yes i loved that, Looking at the post game stats! (And looking at who had the most 'acts of cowardice') ;D
"And looking at who had the most 'acts of cowardice'"
Oh? I didn't even know that existed. You see, none of MY troops EVER acted cowardly :P ;D ;D
V/R,
Jack
You could look at the other side too you know :P
Well played, Sir :D
Certainly when you had a guy/team/crew that racked up a lot of kills, won a lot of medals, you started treating them a bit better, a bit more careful. 'Why don't you guys go sit over there and have a picnic, while these guys go and close assault that machine gun nest.' ;)
V/R,
Jack
Yes, support duty as we call it 8)
Quote from: petercooman on 05 October 2015, 09:11:52 PM
Was that the one where you could pop coloured smoke on a target and watch the navy blast it to bits (in one of the beach fights)?
That's the very one. The airstrikes were a bit "meh" as sometimes you'd get a tanker load of bombs from an A26, and sometimes you'd get a pretty useless strafe from a P51.......
Quote from: bigjackmac on 06 October 2015, 03:08:25 AM
Well played, Sir :D
Certainly when you had a guy/team/crew that racked up a lot of kills, won a lot of medals, you started treating them a bit better, a bit more careful. 'Why don't you guys go sit over there and have a picnic, while these guys go and close assault that machine gun nest.' ;)
V/R,
Jack
That always made me giggle. I once had a Stuart tank with over 300 kills (Infantry), 3 MoH, 2 Silver Stars, 5 Bronze Stars and about 12 Combat Badges between the crew. Admittedly it was part of the force I sent to seize the airfield, but still..... ;D
The cheeky little bugger even killed off a PzrIV at one point!
Tawa,
Yeah man, I had no problem with the Stuarts in those games. They were fast as hell, and could take anything out from behind.
I remember that there was nothing worse than hearing the 'ka-choof' of a panzerfaust being launched. You had just enough time to look around and think 'I don't even see any German infantry' before one of your Shermans blew up... :o :'(
I can recall playing CC2, thinking 'man, I wish the maps were bigger.' Then they made the maps bigger starting with CC3 (East Front), and it was cool, but it was never as dramatic as those tiny little maps in CC2, with Tigers and King Tigers dragging up the street, and me trying to sneak a PIAT into a building. Man those were fun.
V/R,
Jack
Quote from: bigjackmac on 06 October 2015, 06:27:28 PMI remember that there was nothing worse than hearing the 'ka-choof' of a panzerfaust being launched. You had just enough time to look around and think 'I don't even see any German infantry' before one of your Shermans blew up... :o :'(
Or the sudden explosion next one of your tanks rom a hidden AT gun :o Usually right in the bottleneck of a couple of hedged lanes.....
OR looking at the status of your bazooka team when it just missed it's target.
Loading loading come on!!!!
Loading loading loading Come on!!!
Loading taking cover :-w
Loading loading loading
Firing :D
Crater in the ground 2 meter in front of the target
Loading loading loading ~X( ~X( ~X( ~X( ~X( ~X( ~X( ~X( ~X( ~X(
Just send in the flamethrower :P
Close Combat is the top down one with the coloured pins?
I had the Arnhem one, but couldn't get on with it - it seemed too much micromanagement. Was I doing something wrong?
Quote from: Last Hussar on 11 October 2015, 02:51:35 PM
Close Combat is the top down one with the coloured pins?
I had the Arnhem one, but couldn't get on with it - it seemed too much micromanagement. Was I doing something wrong?
Only if you consider playing a game that requires micromanagement, when you don't like games that require micromanagement, wrong. As my mother would say about food when I was young, how do you know you don't like it unless you try it!
Troops in most of these games require constant attention or they do dumb stuff, less stressful if turn-based where you can take a break from the action between turns. Which is why I'm less keen on turn based games.
One of my pet hates in rules sets is allowing troops to do stupid things.
In Napoleonic terms, an infantry regiment in line should be allowed to form square unless specifically ordered not to (yes, Prince of Orange, I'm looking at you.) Col von Ompteda isn't sat on his horse saying "well bless me, there's some Frenchies on horseback approaching at a lick. Wonder what to do. Better wait for orders."
Similarly, Americans in Korea when confronted by a 85mm shell going through the the lead half track, aren't going to carry on. They will run away. That's unfair. Half of them will run away, the others will debus and dig in, and then run away.
Anyway, my point is that some rulesets are skiddy panties.
In the CC games it did require a degree of micro management - but you generally didn't have too many squads / vehicles to look after.
In the later games there were more options to put troops on to overwatch and set way points when moving, which did allow them to be a bit more independent.
CC2 (market garden) was my favourite of the series, probably because of the subject matter, even if it was a bit clunky. The Normandy and Ardennes ones got much better graphics, but the underlying engine didn't really change much.
Yes they needed some management, especially the mortars. If you forgot about those, they would generally fire their entire payload at a field 15 minutes after the last enemy had passed through.
Machine guns were also prone to firing all their lead, when you weren't watching them.
I'd forgotten about the ammo management. It was a method of attacking, if you were in good cover you could get the enemy to shoot off all their ammo, then you could attack them.
Controlling your MGs to keep firing in burst was important. I think the Vickers MGs fired a lot slower so were able to be used for the whole battle much more easily, whereas the MG42s could shoot off their ammo very quickly. In many ways this seems pretty realistic.
Quote from: fred 12df on 11 October 2015, 07:22:23 PM
I'd forgotten about the ammo management. It was a method of attacking, if you were in good cover you could get the enemy to shoot off all their ammo, then you could attack them.
Controlling your MGs to keep firing in burst was important. I think the Vickers MGs fired a lot slower so were able to be used for the whole battle much more easily, whereas the MG42s could shoot off their ammo very quickly. In many ways this seems pretty realistic.
Yes the mg 42 didn't last long if you kept on firing.
The same with recon teams, they would fire of their ammo pretty fast if you lost them out of your sight.
If I'm trying to command a company I don't have time to sod about stopping people shooting all their ammo off!
I'll stick with Combat Mission Beyond Overlord.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 11 October 2015, 07:55:32 PM
If I'm trying to command a company I don't have time to sod about stopping people shooting all their ammo off!
I'll stick with Combat Mission Beyond Overlord.
So does this mean you will push your company forward untill they are out of ammo? :-\
Quote from: Last Hussar on 11 October 2015, 07:55:32 PM
If I'm trying to command a company I don't have time to sod about stopping people shooting all their ammo off!
I'll stick with Combat Mission Beyond Overlord.
Each to their own, but I found CM required much more micro managing and endless replaying of turns to work out what was going on.
Quote from: petercooman on 11 October 2015, 06:37:07 PM
Yes they needed some management, especially the mortars. If you forgot about those, they would generally fire their entire payload at a field 15 minutes after the last enemy had passed through.
Or deciding they weren't happy with their lot as mortarmen and would start crawling towards the enemy for no bloody reason..... >:(
Quote from: Tawa on 12 October 2015, 09:41:26 PM
Or deciding they weren't happy with their lot as mortarmen and would start crawling towards the enemy for no bloody reason..... >:(
That was it - soldiers all over the place with you going "What the HELL do you think you are doing"
My recollection was it was Schrodenbergs wargame. You could know where units were, or what they were doing, but never both at the same time.
Quote from: Tawa on 12 October 2015, 09:41:26 PM
Or deciding they weren't happy with their lot as mortarmen and would start crawling towards the enemy for no bloody reason..... >:(
They usually did that if they were out of ammo, and were still on fire orders, they woul go and shoot ;D
Quote from: petercooman on 13 October 2015, 04:01:29 AM
They usually did that if they were out of ammo, and were still on fire orders, they woul go and shoot ;D
Mine always did it even if they were on ambush orders...... :(
Quote from: Last Hussar on 12 October 2015, 10:41:30 PM
That was it - soldiers all over the place with you going "What the HELL do you think you are doing"
"Get back in that f&%3ing hedgerow!!!!"
Quote from: Last Hussar on 12 October 2015, 10:41:30 PM
That was it - soldiers all over the place with you going "What the HELL do you think you are doing"
My recollection was it was Schrodenberg's wargame. You could know where units were, or what they were doing, but never both at the same time.
Don't believe I've heard of that person....
Quote from: Tawa on 13 October 2015, 10:37:53 AM
"Get back in that f&%3ing hedgerow!!!!"
in the West Country, that's courtship.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 13 October 2015, 11:11:15 AM
Don't believe I've heard of that person....
Maybe he's a friend of Heisenberg, but I can't be certain. :-\ Just as long as he doesn't keep his cat in a fridge! :D :D ;)
Mollinary
Quote from: fsn on 13 October 2015, 11:44:07 AM
in the West Country, that's courtship.
Alroyt moy ansome? Does you want a drop o ziyder? ;D
Either
1) Never type on a tablet late at night when you need sleep but the cough from the chest infection is keeping you awake
or
2) You aren't up on the latest research in quantum wargaming.
:'( :'( >:( :o
Quote from: petercooman on 04 October 2015, 06:39:34 PM
By the way, i just popped the cossack disk back in.
And if my wife says something about it, i'm blaming you!!
Just found out. They are releasing a modern re-make of the original Cossacks game!
http://www.cossacks3.com (http://www.cossacks3.com)
And I had just rebuilt my life! Nooooooooooo!
Quote from: Westmarcher on 09 March 2016, 09:00:27 PM
Just found out. They are releasing a modern re-make of the original Cossacks game!
http://www.cossacks3.com (http://www.cossacks3.com)
And I had just rebuilt my life! Nooooooooooo!
=P~ =P~ =P~
Currently playing the Early Access (aka alpha version) of "Naval Action" through Steam - it's very pretty but with no ingame help, limited PVE and very basic interface.
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/12622185_10153358227441398_93232092954829796_o.jpg)