When I was a lad, about the time Techno was getting another telegram from the queen and a restraining order from Agneta Falskog of ABBA fame, wargaming was in many ways a simple pleasure.
Unless you were marvellously wealthy, you had available a limited range of Airfix kits and figures - those available in your local model shop - which was run by a chap called "Dave", "Mike", or "Terry" - and undoubtedly painted them using Airfix or Humbrol enamels. Basing was on any suitable flat material. Paint techniques were relatively simple, and the results often "toy soldier". No dipping. A quick coat of dry brush was about the limit of some of the more la-di-da gamers on the modelling end of the spectrum.
If the figures weren't available, you converted those that were. Airfix Confederates stood very well for Austrian Grenzer, and the US cavalry with appropriate plasticene and banana-oil (I just used gloss varnish) hats charged into battle as the Scots Greys.
Rules were incredibly simple - until WRG. Measurements were in inches, and it seems to me the competitive element was largely subsumed under a thick layer of bonhomie and ... fun.
What brought these happy thoughts to mind was the suggestion by Amazon that I would like to purchase "weathering sticks". "Weathering sticks"? What happened to the days of brushes - paint, brushes - tooth, files - raspy, modelling knife - sharp, and pyrograuve - pin stuck into a cork being the only tools needed?
Have we become too complicated and look too much up our own ovipositors? Have we, as a hobby become too picky about base sizes and Space Marines and how many buttons an a French tail back in 1810 that we sometimes miss the essentials?
I am as guilty, nay more guilty, than the next man of amassing the goodies. The hobby has become slick and comprehensive (except for 10mm superheroes) and perhaps less tolerant?
So, my question to the older members. Is wargaming a better hobby now, than it was when Chieftain tanks were novel, and Sky TV was unknown. When our idea of what would be came largely from Captain James T Kirk, and Techno released that second difficult album whose recording resulted in 3 blown eardrums, one badly mangled finger and a successful arson attempt?
Yes, no, maybe...
That second album is worth a packet btw
Packet of what?
The worst part of today's wargaming for the elderly teenagers amongst us is the choice and standard of periods/ figures available. Funds to buy them and time to paint them is decreasing year by year. My friend DaveL and I often look at new items and wish we were 40 years younger. 😩😩😩😩😩😩
Chad
History today is still history. And I still enjoy new discoveries that bring more detail to light.
On the tabletop, I like the differences of history reflected in the rules. But it doesn't have to be as graded as in WRG and their like. Just simple differences. And lots of character.
Quote from: fsn on 29 June 2015, 07:25:49 AM
Have we become too complicated and look too much up our own ovipositors?
:-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-& :-t
For what it's worth, it still is what you do with it, nobody can oblige you to evolve with it :D
I'll keep my weathering stick where it belongs, and don't put it anywhere near an amazon! :d :d :d
Actually I think the hobby is in a really good place. I've been wargaming properly since 1967 and I think the hobby went through its worst phase in the late 70s and 80s with the search for realism. There seems to have been a decade or more when the fun element left the hobby and a degree in law and a master's in pure mathematics was needed to get to grips with rules. Then, at last, the hobby began to find its way back with rule sets like Fire and Fury, They Died for Glory and Impetus (before which I had not played an Ancients game since the late 70s).
Today the biggest battles can be tackled with fun, straightforward rules such as Bloody Big Battles, Altar of Freedom and Wargaming C19th Europe; whilst smaller games can be enjoyed with rules like the Black Powder stable, One Hour War-games and the like. For me it is the rules that make or break the hobby, after all without them it becomes purely military modelling. I was never sucked into the wargames competition scene - too much like hard work and associated angst. With the re-emergence of simpler, faster rules the fun has been put back into the hobby. As a result a hobby that first gripped me in 1967 with Don Featherstone's Wargames still keeps me entertained into retirement.
It's only as complicated as you yourself make it. I'm always on the hunt for the simplest possible rules and then further simplify them; probably I should just throw two dice, higher wins. Save all that messing about setting up boards and terrain! Then what would I need figures for? No one needs figures, just gotta have 'em so I'll continue to amass armies which will never see a tabletop whilst uttering the odd maniacal laugh. :D ;)
I've been wargaming since 1970 and have seen wargaming evolving, in some ways beneficial, in others superficial and yet other ways -in my opinion- downright pointless. One of the double edged swords is that there are now figures for almost everything you can think of...and probably a lot you can't, so unless you have the willpower of a saint, butterfly interest is most definitely the order of the day; before it was a case of Airfix in plastic or Min iFigs, Hinchcliffe and Hinton Hunt in metal so choosing a new period was far less of a problem. The greatest beneficial advance is in paint, acrylics apart from enamel undercoat and varnish, most people use them. Painting techniques have also advanced almost exponentially going from block colours to multi-layer shading and washes, all very good if you have the time or the inclination.
By far and away the biggest change has been the internet. Ideas, painting and terrain making techniques now flash across the globe whereas before it was what you or your mates had read about in a magazine or asked one of the luminaries of the day at a show how they painted their little chaps. I remember talking to Peter Gilder about his basing technique and Bob O'Brien-from the 'original' WRG), about his plastic conversions from Airfix ACW cavalry to Huns. Sigh, simpler days.
The downside is that the whole package can now be bought in one go. Instead of the research of the uniforms, reading about the organisation, strategy, tactics and traits of your forces, you can simply buy a box of everything, put it on the table and off you go. I have heard the argument that people don't have time to do all of that anymore, but what's changed? Nearly everyone I knew at the time had full time jobs yet still found time to paint and game, so that argument doesn't hold any water at all as far as I am concerned. If you are that interested in something you will find the time.
In summation, it's getting as complicated or as simple as you personally want it to be. The latest must-haves -be they rules or figures- can easily be avoided...if you want to. Unfortunately peer pressure at a club or group is a lot harder to ignore without feeling ostracised.
Bear in mind, this is coming from a bloke who mostly solo's and doesn't really need to buy any more figures but does anyway.
Quote from: Leman on 29 June 2015, 08:25:58 AM
Today the biggest battles can be tackled with fun, straightforward rules such as Bloody Big Battles, Altar of Freedom and Wargaming C19th Europe; whilst smaller games can be enjoyed with rules like the Black Powder stable, One Hour War-games and the like. For me it is the rules that make or break the hobby, after all without them it becomes purely military modelling. I was never sucked into the wargames competition scene - too much like hard work and associated angst. With the re-emergence of simpler, faster rules the fun has been put back into the hobby. As a result a hobby that first gripped me in 1967 with Don Featherstone's Wargames still keeps me entertained into retirement.
The same counts for me,we play 1 day in two weeks, and when we do we have a 2 and a half hour to get a battle in. Complicated stuff never gets finished in time so we choose rules that accurately represent the period, but in a simple way, so we can get it finished. That's why blitzkrieg commander sees so much playtime in our group!
Quote from: Subedai on 29 June 2015, 09:19:58 AM
The downside is that the whole package can now be bought in one go. Instead of the research of the uniforms, reading about the organisation, strategy, tactics and traits of your forces, you can simply buy a box of everything, put it on the table and off you go. I have heard the argument that people don't have time to do all of that anymore, but what's changed? Nearly everyone I knew at the time had full time jobs yet still found time to paint and game, so that argument doesn't hold any water at all as far as I am concerned. If you are that interested in something you will find the time.
This is something that i don't understand myself. Why game a period if you don't want to learn about it anyway? i find myself buying books about the periods i game, just because i want to know the tactics, the organisation, and the 'drive' the armies had to fight each other in the first place. Otherwise you might as well just play a boardgame, just open the box and play.
We all buy more figures - hence my Bolivians bought at Phalanx. This did lead to an internet search revealing more about the causes and events of the 1879-84 war, the uniforms and the navies. A visit to the Tumbling Dice site revealed a number of the Chilean and Peruvian ships, and a further internet search unearthed a Singaporean blog where the blogger had put together both navies using TD models, plus photos of the ships used. So research has uncovered a complete land and naval campaign. Incidentally, using the Pendraken Bolivian army pack, I was also able to put together a couple of Peruvian BBB units as well.
Quote from: Leman on 29 June 2015, 09:34:15 AM
We all buy more figures - hence my Bolivians bought at Phalanx. This did lead to an internet search revealing more about the causes and events of the 1879-84 war, the uniforms and the navies. A visit to the Tumbling Dice site revealed a number of the Chilean and Peruvian ships, and a further internet search unearthed a Singaporean blog where the blogger had put together both navies using TD models, plus photos of the ships used. So research has uncovered a complete land and naval campaign. Incidentally, using the Pendraken Bolivian army pack, I was also able to put together a couple of Peruvian BBB units as well.
One of the pluses of the internet, worldwide research options from your desk. A lot of the stuff I have unearthed over the years you would never find in the British Library system despite how good it is.
In a way, that is what I was talking about. You bought the figures then went and researched your topic -although I do it the other way around just in case I lose interest half way through- so that you have some background knowledge of the period.
TBH I asked for the Caliver book on 'The Uniforms of the Pacific War' as a retirement present to feed my interest and have something to refer to when it became possible to pursue this. Then BBB produced two scenarios for the war and Konstantinos Travels set up the C19th Facebook page and started the ball rolling with war in South America. It's a massive, turning wheel which will eventually result in a war-game, rather like my visit to the Spicheren battlefield in 2006.
I'm not generally massively fussed about minutia of a period, just a "wargamers view" of what was interesting and makes it different (or similar!) to other periods, but as I sit at the computer for work ll day I can get very carried away on websites about stuff that's of interest :D
Made a historian friend of mine despair; "look at the exciting stuff about X and Y wot is in my diss" she says, "wot about the stabby things and shooty things" says I :D
I think we're in a different, but not necessarily better or worse stage of the hobby than we were. There's a much more professional big business, big box theme (from all periods) which I'd hope (and have seen) whet peoples appetites for more (and also seen the "no need for further reading, done the entire $conflict_X now so nothing else matters". Hell, they still have fun, pushed some lead, see a bit of a period outside what they might know so it's still not a loss!), to the "ground up" "research something wierd and interesting, speak to Techno and get figures made because the gaiter buttons on the 1737 waders are the wrong shaped lozenge", and everything in between.
I think the main point is - there's now as much or as little there as you want to go for. If you want to push lead in a vaguely historical matter but the games the thing - you're covered. If you want something out the norm (or even in the norm but in more depth!), but have limited time or resources, well, you're covered. If you want to painstakingly research something and get really involved - hey, you're EVEN BETTER covered :D
Immeasurably better than in the days of my youth. Only things I miss are average dice.
Average dice? I'm lucky if I can roll above a one on a d6 these days ;)
Quote from: FierceKitty on 29 June 2015, 10:44:02 AM
Immeasurably better than in the days of my youth. Only things I miss are average dice.
They exist!
https://www.thediceshoponline.com/dice/2249/Average-Dice-Yellow
I know, but they aren't really needed any more. Good rules these days have reg/irreg distinctions written in, don't they?
I've been gaming since the mid-60s .......... OMG!
Since then - more rules, more scales, more periods, more paints, more scenery, more techniques for painting and scenery making .... more shiny new toys in more materials.
Pig in clover, me!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 29 June 2015, 07:43:02 AM
Yes, no, maybe...
That second album is worth a packet btw
Yes it is !
As far as I know, I have the
only copy of "The Homunculus In My Gazebo" which includes the Festering Boggies' seminal work..."The dog done sh*t on my Persian rug blues".
(You will never EVER hear this.....(But it does exist)....Unless I send a copy to Nobby when I'm VERY,
VERY drunk !)
But.....Back to the point of the thread.
I think things are only as complicated as
you want to make them.
I'm a complete sucker for 'tips'......different modeling tools.....putties, etc....But I enjoy learning all the time. Even in my dotage.
I believe that this is a 'golden era' for soldiers/gaming.
Cheers - Phil
Is it all getting a bit complicated? I'd say no: in important ways (as all mentioned above already) it's vastly simpler - as in easier. The ranges of figures and the choice of rulesets for every taste and every conflict are wonderful. And the wealth of information available now, not just on the web but also your traditional "BOOK" format ("Bound Optimally-Ordered Knowledge"), is just immeasurably superior to decades gone by. No more laborious photocopying in the Library of Congress for me! If I had to start over, without question I'd rather do it now than with the very limited resources we had 'back then'.
Of course the most important resource is the same now as then - a bunch of like-minded friends to share your enthusiasm with. The past few years I've been incredibly fortunate, we have a great group and I am getting plenty of high-quality gaming fun.
(And anyone who wants to come along to the Oxford Wargames Society of a Monday evening and join in is welcome to do so!)
http://www.oxfordwargamessociety.org.uk/dates.html
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/
Quote from: Leman on 29 June 2015, 08:25:58 AM
Actually I think the hobby is in a really good place. ...... With the re-emergence of simpler, faster rules the fun has been put back into the hobby. As a result a hobby that first gripped me in 1967 with Don Featherstone's Wargames still keeps me entertained into retirement.
Quote from: Techno on 29 June 2015, 11:47:36 AM
I believe that this is a 'golden era' for soldiers/gaming.
Agreed.
There. That was easy. [-(
An Oxford man should really be insisting that wargaming be put on hold for twenty years until all rule-sets can be rendered into acceptable medieval Latin. ;)
Quote from: FierceKitty on 29 June 2015, 12:33:29 PM
An Oxford man should really be insisting that wargaming be put on hold for twenty years until all rule-sets can be rendered into acceptable medieval Latin. ;)
No, he shouldn't !
Latin is a language,
as dead as dead can be,
at first it killed the Romans,
and now it's killing me.
Cheers - Phil (In his youth.....circa 15 AD.)
Now write that on the sculpting room wall a thousand times!
At least you didn't threaten to remove a part of my anatomy..... :P ;) ;D
Cheers - Phil
You're quite capable of doing that yourself ;)
It is a different scene and it us that has changed.
When I started out, the wargame magazine did not have any colour and then it suddenly got a colour centre fold (no not that mag!) and our eyes were opened to what could be done by the good painters and model makers. The Don Featherstone type books had simple schematic maps and our tables reflected that - so my game table would be a road, one hill and a house or two etc. Full colour magazines, the internet, more money in our pocket and more choice has moved us to a point in time in which we have simply more sophisticated tastes and ambitions - have we lost some fun along the way .... maybe, but `I think a number of recent publications are trying to reverse that trend, so that we have the best of all worlds.
Just out of interest, here is a link to a nostalgia article that I recently wrote for my blog .... note the tree made from dyed cotton wool and matchsticks .... at least I saved the reader from houses made from matchboxes and cushion foam hills with the layers stitched together. We were too poor for fields and roads!
LINK - http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/remembering-old-wargame.html
Quote from: Techno on 29 June 2015, 01:17:12 PM
No, he shouldn't !
Latin is a language,
as dead as dead can be,
at first it killed the Romans,
and now it's killing me.
Cheers - Phil (In his youth.....circa 15 AD.)
You know that, I know that, but Oxford has certain traditions. That's why Cambridge got Newton and Darwin and Hawkins, and Oxford got Cardinal Newman, and expelled Shelley for atheism.
I simply could NOT get on with Latin at school......AT ALL.....I hated it.
I dropped it at the earliest opportunity.....For art. (Which I've found a bit more useful.)
In my year, I was always first to finish in a Latin exam...By miles.....I'd have an answer for every single question, and almost without fail get a mark of around 29%.
Basically, I wasn't interested, and couldn't see what use it would be to me in later life.
Cheers - Phillius Stupidus.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 29 June 2015, 12:33:29 PM
An Oxford man should really be insisting that wargaming be put on hold for twenty years until all rule-sets can be rendered into acceptable medieval Latin. ;)
Well, it depends which philosophical school one adheres to. Yes, there are the Platonic Idealists seeking perfection and never actually getting anything done. There are also the Stoics putting up with [insert name of ruleset you most detest] despite its obvious glaring deficiencies and painful tedium. I am more of a Pragmatist/Realist/Hedonist - hence games that get completed in an evening, bear some resemblance to a historical action, and are fun. 8)
Chris
Quote from: Techno on 29 June 2015, 01:17:12 PM
No, he shouldn't !
Latin is a language,
as dead as dead can be,
at first it killed the Romans,
and now it's killing me.
Cheers - Phil (In his youth.....circa 15 AD.)
It's not dead at all. An Oxford wargames club night rarely passes without some pertinent Latin phrase being deployed such as "Aleae iactae sunt", "Veni-vidi-vici", or "Nil illegitimum carborundum".
Vale
Chris
Winky wanky wonky!
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 29 June 2015, 03:43:53 PM
... "Aleae iactae sunt"...
Is that what happens if it rolls low repeatedly :-\
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 29 June 2015, 03:43:53 PM
"Nil illegitimum carborundum".
Does that come with garlic bread?
I tend to reach for the Middle German, for as Billy Connolly put it, people know Exactly what you mean, even if they don't speak English.
Modern rules are much better. Remember the long list of modifiers to be applied to a roll for everything? I wrote a skirmish game like that- unplayable. Far more pragmatic is the "black box" approach: I don't need to know odds of hitting, penetrating, damagind, etc. I just need to know one number that will kill the tank I'm firing at.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 30 June 2015, 12:35:29 AM
Remember the long list of modifiers to be applied to a roll for everything?
I think WRG Rennaisance rules by George Gush took this to the limit in the melee rules.
I have been gaming since about 1975. Money and the limited kit forced you to compromise on what you gamed with.
Now its almost a case if "if you want to game it, its there". I think this is good for the gamers and saves lots of fiddling about converting stuff. I am not a modeller I am a wargamer. I do not want to spend hours converting a unit. I don't mind a paintbrush conversion or using a reasonable proxie, but thats as far as I want to go. so the current situation suits me fine.
Some of the modern sets of rule are brilliant, giving a feel of the period and teh ability to finish a game in an evening or a big game in a day. Others have lost the feel of the period.
Yes I have too much kit and while trying to rationalise will still get more,but it is an investment against the day I may not be able to afford stuff.
So in short Its a great time to be a wargamer.
My only concern is:- Can all these varied ranges be commercially viable when the wargames comunity only has a finite amount of cash ?
Well said that man
QuoteMy only concern is:- Can all these varied ranges be commercially viable when the wargames comunity only has a finite amount of cash ?
The continued ability for the 15mm WWII market to grow seems to suggest that saturation point is further into the future than any of us would have once thought.