My early 1960s era Banana Republic army needs 1st generation wire guided anti tank missiles - the Vickers Vigilant type. I have scratch built them out of modified 1/144 Sidewinder rockets and plastic card control panels.
Does any one have the A/T and A/P for this type of weapon if I was using them with BKC era rules ?
The Sagger proved quite effective against the Israeli Centurion in 1973. Did the Vigilant have a similar clout ?
Had a quick google - as I don't know anything much about these weapons. They are shaped charged (which I kind of assumed) which means if they hit then their penetration will be really good.
I don't know how you represent the accuracy of early wire guided missiles - and the problems of the operator keeping the sights on target in a combat situation. I know the Israelis put a lot of MG fire down on any Sagger launch to make the operator hide and loose track of the target.
First off - there is one with a HESH warhead - Malkara, which comes on a modified Humber Pig.
Details - if you can get hold of it the old "Modern Vehicle Handbook" which was tied to Challenger 2000(ARGGGGGGGGGHHH) has all you need.
Real world data are :-
Entac _ 400- 2000m, pen of 65cm of RHA
SS-11 & harpon - 350 - 3000m pen of 60cm of armour
Cobra - 400-2000m pen 45cm RHA
KAM-3D - 350-1800m - no pen for this one.
AT-2 Swatter - 600-2500m - no pen
AT-3 Sagger - 500 - 3000m - 45cm RHA
Vigilant 200-1375m - 55cm RHA
RHA = rolled hardened armour - ie simple steel.
I suspect that a basis of 1 die per 7.5 cm is about right. BKC has a ground scale of roughly 1-2000.
IanS
Thanks for this. The WSI doctrine (after 1973) was wire guided missiles launch pad had to be within 10-15meters of the operators - so on seeing the flash you put suppressive fire from the GPMGs on the operators if seen, or the potential cover. The IDF proved that it worked.
I would be interested in working that aspect into the rules. Unless an AVF or APC is buttoned up, the crew will see the launch and the missile in its (relatively) slow flight. There is time for (a) evasive action and (b) suppressive fire, which must be added to hit/save element of the vehicle.
The modified Pig - we knew it as the Hornet. The Aussie Malkaras were massive missiles, too big to mount on a Landrover or a Ferret. The Hornet was restricted in issue to the Paras, or to be precise. the RAC Parachute Squadron.
I was in the ATGW Troop at the RAC school of gunnery at Lulworth Camp back in the mid 70's (1974-75). Although we had a couple of Mk 2/6 Ferrets equipped with Vigilant launchers they were only ever used as MG (Browning .30) armed vehicles. The only ATGW I saw used at that time were Swingfire missiles.
Bearing in mind that I wasn't actually trained on any ATGW (I was in fact a Chieftain gunner...go figure!?) and that the 70's is a long time ago, I seem to remember being told that the Vigilant was never issued in large numbers. It may have gone to units for troop tests but as far as I know it was never operational mainly because it wasn't considered very good. On the other hand I did spend a 'fun' afternoon using a Vigilant simulator...they wanted to see how well soldiers who'd not been trained on ATGW could use the weapon, I think I was about average, I hit the target three or four times out of god knows how many shots...those things are pretty hard to fly!
So, I'd be wary about using Vigilant on the wargames table unless of course you're using it in a non-historical setting.
If you're interested...
Firing procedure.
1) Cock the weapon. This was very like cocking a single action pistol with the 'hammer' positioned just behind the pistol grip.
2) Select target.
3) Aim and fire by squeezing the firing trigger.
At this point the missile launches and gains some altitude. You'll then see the missile drift downwards into your sight picture. I found that the best thing to do was to let the missile fly itself to the target as much as possible. You only took control of the missile (by squeezing another trigger) and flying it to the target (by a thumb operated joystick) only when you got close to the target (a couple of hundred yards). Otherwise the missile could go all over the place to such an extent that you could lose control of the damn thing. I can see why simply shooting in the direction of the suspected operator was so effective. As far as I know British army ATGW was generally fired from armoured vehicles until Milan came out which I'm told was a lot easier to operate.
Once again bear in mind that I was a TANK crewman and after my unit left Lulworth I had no further contact with ATGW.
I also remember being told that Soviet ATGW required a lot more practice to use that Western systems, although I've no idea how true that is.
I hope the table below is of some use. :)
Two points not covered up to now:
1. The penetration figure given in specification data does not equate to automatic kills if it exceeds the defending armour thickness, because the penetrating jet may not be of sufficient power. In the Guns V Armour site by Claus Bonnesen and David Honner they estimate that 150 -200mm over penetration is required for a kill.
http://amizaur.prv.pl/www.wargamer.org/GvA/background/ammotypes11.html (http://amizaur.prv.pl/www.wargamer.org/GvA/background/ammotypes11.html) http://amizaur.prv.pl/www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html (http://amizaur.prv.pl/www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html)
2. Early and most late guided weapons cannot hit at very close range because the guidance system has to pick up the missile in flight. So there was a minimum range that a target could be engaged at. With earlier missiles this would be quite big i.e. 500 mteres or so.
The table below gives basic information, penetration band, likely percentage chance of a hit, and in the last notes column ATGW that fit into this category. (Ignore the bits in the middle they are used in my own rules.)
UNIT TYPE % hit penetrate 2 4 8 12 20 notes
ATGM HEAT in MM 500m 1000m 2000m 3000m 5000m
pen up to 400 RHA 65% 400 7 15 13 11 8
75% 400 9 17 16 13 9 AT-1 Snapper, AT-3 SaggerB
80% 400 9 18 17 14 10 AT-4 Spigot A
90% 400 10 21 19 16 11
pen up to 500 RHA 65 500 9 18 16 14 10 AT-2 Swatter A and B, AT-3 SaggerC
75 500 11 21 19 16 12 AT-4 Spigot B, AT-7 Saxhorn
80 500 11 22 20 17 12 AT-2 Swatter C, Dragon
90 500 13 25 23 19 14
pen up to 600 RHA 65 600 11 21 19 16 12 SS11, Vigilant
70 600 12 23 21 17 13 AT-5 Spandrel, AT-6 Spiral
75 600 12 25 22 19 14 Shillelagh
80 600 13 26 24 20 15 AT-9 Ataka, AT-12 Sheksna
90 600 15 30 27 22 16 AT-8 Songster/Kobra, Milan 1, Javelin(top attack)
pen up to 700 RHA 65 700 12 25 22 19 14
70 700 13 27 24 20 15
75 700 14 29 26 21 16
80 700 15 30 27 23 17 AT-10 Stabber
90 700 17 34 31 26 19 AT-11 Sniper, Refleks 1985
pen up to 800 RHA 65 800 14 28 25 21 15 Malkara
70 800 15 30 27 23 17 AT-5 improved Spandrel
75 800 16 32 29 24 18 TOW, HOT, Swingfire
80 800 17 34 31 26 19 AT-11 Sniper, Refleks 1989, AT-15 Krizantema
90 800 19 39 35 29 21 later Swingfire, Milan 2
pen up to 900 RHA 75 900 18 36 32 27 20
80 900 19 38 35 29 21 AT-11 Sniper, Refleks 2006, AT-13 Metis-m
90 900 22 43 39 32 24 Hellfire, Milan 3
pen up to 1000 RHA 70 1000 19 37 33 28 20
80 1000 21 42 38 32 23
90 1000 24 48 43 36 26
pen up to 1100 RHA 70 1100 20 41 37 30 22
80 1100 23 46 42 35 26
90 1100 26 52 47 39 29 HOT2
pen up to1200 RHA 75 1200 24 47 43 35 26 TOW2
80 1200 25 50 45 38 28 AT-14 Kornet
90 1200 28 57 51 43 31
pen up to 1300 RHA 70 1300 24 48 43 36 26
80 1300 27 54 49 41 30
90 1300 31 61 55 46 34 HOT3 TOW2B
pen up to 1400 RHA 70 1400 26 51 46 38 28
80 1400 29 58 53 44 32
90 1400 33 66 59 49 36
pen up to 1500 RHA 70 1500 27 55 49 41 30
80 1500 31 62 56 47 34 Maverick
90 1500 35 70 63 53 39 TOW3, Brimstone
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Bugg*#, I cannot get the tablle columns to play :(. Hope you can still understand it.
Cheers Rob :) :)
I am obliged to Rob for taking the time to annotate this very playable solution table, and to Steeleye for his experiences.
As a 70s infantryman my 'experience' in my dealings with Support Coy was with the Wombat, which soldiered on for a long time. I recall them still in Berlin in the 80s!
It was not until years later on a confidential BAT posting that I saw the Vigilant being used by a client state's armed forces. I remember being told that they were about £500 per round, and stocks were very limited. The 73 experience in Sinai seemed to give a new status to the wire guided AT weapons.
Then the Milan came on the market, and the client being cash rich traded up.
Anyway, the way my scratch build as turned out - its a Sagger !
Thanks again to all on the forum for help and assistance.