Topic title says it all. Was a time you couldn't move on the forum for Centurion tanks. Now it's goblins, dwarves and fairies. Whatever happened to history?
It'll be spring in Mordor before I go the fantasy route. Fear not, the Old Guard are not in retreat yet.
Division of 1870 French to be finished soon! ;)
Ah! The way I look at it is that if the whole Warband thing really takes off then Pendraken grows and perhaps we'll get a T35. I hope Warband takes off and perhaps some of the its adherents can be persuaded into something a little more un-fantasy (if I may coin a phrase).
Meanwhile, it's up to historical (and pseudo-historical) gamers to keep the flag flying. Post a few new threads chaps!
Early war German infantry just being based
Early war Tanks next on table
There will be an Orc army soon, but its still lost in Mordor (lead mountain)
Of course you have the ultimate Fantasist in FSN - he lives in a fantasy world
FSN = Fantasy Seems Normal
The Mahdi still lives in the Sudan as far as I am concerned and some Mongol chappies will be issuing forth from the Steppe when I can get my Mojo back :)
the dwarves are still sitting in their plastic packet as they have done for the last 3 years :)
Fantasy and Sci-fi have the advantage of being limited only by one's imagination. No dry, dusty tomes to read. No rivet counters, no one to tell you,"That regiment had ochre cuffs not yellow!" A realm of heroes and monsters where death in battle is glorious not grubby, messy and painful. Indeed, a realm where being dead is no bar to taking part!
Couple that with the long term support from the GW juggernaut and I'm vaguely surprised any of us are left playing historical periods at all.
Most of the youngsters I come across are players not collectors. They want something they can take straight out of the box and on to the table, like Wings of Glory, Star Wars Armada and D&D Attack Wing. I think the collectable card game boom just reinforces that.
It's much the same with board games. I'm sure there are still people out there playing historical period hex-grid wargames but all the people I play with these days play "Euro-Games" like Catan, Small World, Ticket to Ride or Carcassonne.
FoW's packaging of WW2 in a way similar to the GW style may help keep historical gaming alive. Though perhaps not in a format traditional gamers would recognise!
There's fantasy and there's fantasy.
Goblins and hobbits and trolls (oh boy!) I left behind in about 1982 when the radio series of Lord of the Rings finished, I read Ursula le Guin (and found it wanting) and discovered that bitter is the drink for me.
I
am prone to fits of imagination - such as everyone else on the forum being scantily clad, young and female. As I've said before, that's a lovely world to live in.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 27 April 2015, 12:14:04 PM
No rivet counters, no one to tell you,"That regiment had ochre cuffs not yellow!"
But dwarves aren't allowed cavalry, and people argue about what colour a troll is!
Does it really matter? I get sniffy remarks because I like a tank, poor old Kitty gets ripped for his Aztec perversion, and I take the Michael relentlessly out of the LoA (or LoFA as it is known in my house). As long as people enjoy themselves and the only real fight is on the table.
I'd still buy Aztecs before fantasy - FSN
Quote from: Maenoferren on 27 April 2015, 12:12:52 PM
The Mahdi still lives in the Sudan as far as I am concerned
I ran him over with an AMX13 this morning.
Sorry.
Quote from: fsn on 27 April 2015, 12:39:22 PM
I ran him over with an AMX13 this morning.
Sorry.
B*gger...luckily the Kalifa can take over, unless you ran over him at the same time :)
I have a large number of fantasy armies that just need taking out and playing with... I may do so tonight :) - just for parity of esteem purposes.
Quote from: fsn on 27 April 2015, 12:30:27 PM
But dwarves aren't allowed cavalry, and people argue about what colour a troll is!
Yes, but unless you can turn up towing a dead troll behind you, your views on the colour of trolls is worth no more, or less, than mine.
Last fantasy game I played I lost because Dwarven bear-mounted heavy cavalry, supported by a Dwarven mage riding a gryphon, sandwiched my paladin general. Previous game that afternoon my army had been entirely composed of "trees" ... OK, Ents and Huorns but basically tree models :) Free your imagination!
Funny this thread pops up when i am pondering about selling my fantasy collection :-\
At some stage I might dip my toes into the fantasy side of the wargaming river but at the moment I am busy enough with my historicals. I do like the imaginative grandeur of fantasy settings and of course, like SciFi, you can make up your settings if you so wish and no one can gainsay you.
I really don't see a difference.
All wargaming, no matter what period, genre, or setting, is primarily fantasy. The only exception is where you're painting known uniforms on specific troops from a set historical period.
Consider a 'historical' refight of Waterloo.
1. Collect figures (these may be historically accurate – who knows? Certainly a bit of fantasy involved)
2. Paint said figures (good treatises on colour, so this might be safely 'historical'?)
3. Research battle (bit of 'historical', but many accounts and details are disputed so some leeway (fantasy) is needed)
4. Fight battle (unless you simply move units to known moves and resolve engagements to know resolutions (where's the fun in that?!), this is firmly 'fantasy' here – after all in your battle Old Boney may win!)
Stuffed to the gunwhales with 'fantasy', no?
Going further back into ancients, you're even deeper into the realms of fantasy. Seriously – who really knows what a Gaul looked like? Or a Roman soldier? What about Roman tactics? We can guess and reconstruct from fragmentary sources but nobody really knows how manipular tactics worked. So we make it up.
I look at a well painted Macedonian phalanx army with the same eye as a well painted High Elf army. Both are basically made up – its just that one is given the 'historical' tag, as if that's something more 'worthy'. :(
And compare the fun of painting a dwarf clan, compared to the 'fun' of trawling through the painting dirge of a wall of WWII khaki... @-)
Personally I play historical of all periods and fantasy and sci fi of many different genres. Aside from the similarities above, I see very little difference in terms of gameplay. In fact, many fantasy/sci fi games and rules are better and more tactically challenging than historical rules.
General Quarters gives an excellent and challenging game of 'battleships', but compared to the tactical challenges of Dystopian Wars I'd choose DW every time.
As to Warband...well...only time will tell to see if a 'historical' version ever hits the market.
Absolutely agree, Old Chap - except some of like the "dirge" of khaki. >:(
Let's get it in context. Pendraken have released Warband. This has generated an amount of attention, and interest and generated sales for the company that we love so much. This is a good thing.
Fantasy isn't everybody's cup of tea. It's not mine. I prefer my tigers to have a Maybach engine, not Chinese dwarf riders.
If the fantasists are taking over (and I'm not aware that they are), then whose fault is that? Are historical gamers unable to make historical games attractive enough to compete with fantasy games for the attention and enthusiasm of players? At our club I have actually managed to recruit one lad from the realms of fantasy, who is now firmly convinced of the merits of historical battles in a non-tournament format ("pointless games" as he wittily dubbed them). But Ithoriel makes sound points about the appeal of fantasy games, which are geared very effectively towards entertainment and relatively instant gratification, by comparison with which some historical games can require more effort and risk the rivet-counters as Ithoriel says. (Guilty - sorry - can't help myself sometimes ... but there just weren't that many T-34/57s ever used ...)
Personally although I prefer historical battles, I have no objection fantasy games - I actually find them more appealing than tournament games with nominally historical armies - and I have happily played plenty of fantasy stuff of various kinds. If that's what people want to play, then unless and until it means I can't get a table or find an opponent for a historical game at the club, I don't see the problem.
BTW Luddite, mate, I have to disagree about all wargaming being primarily fantasy. Yes, we have imperfect knowledge of historical events, and yes, we have imperfect knowledge of how combat actually resolves itself. But that does not mean that it is an impossible fantasy to set up a historical battle in such a way as to present the players with a situation that is firmly grounded in historical fact, confronts them with tactical choices that reflect historical factors, and gives them real insight into how and why a historical battle took the course it did. There are plenty of battles for which we have very good information about how many troops were where and when, with what weapons, the relative performance of those weapons, what the terrain and weather were like, morale and command qualities, indeed all the significant factors to a sufficient degree to be able to model the historical situation plausibly. Trying out a different plan from the one used historically - attacking on the left instead of the right, or whatever - doesn't make the game fantasy, it may help you to understand why they used the plan they did (because of terrain difficulties, time/space considerations, etc) and thereby give you a better historical appreciation.
A historical wargame scenario may be imperfect history, but that does not make it fantasy.
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/
When I started this thread I wondered how long it would be before the old chestnut of "all wargaming is fantasy" would crop up. I beg to differ. Panzergrenadiers are not fantasy; zombie panzergrenadiers definitely are. There is also the point that if fantasy 'unleashes the imagination' then if you're going to photon blast my fairies, then I imagine my fairies are immune to photon blasts because photon blasts temporarily turn them into giant photon blaster devouring werewolves who cause the photon blaster operatives to hallucinate, see pink reptillian flying elephantine mammoths and flee. Imagine the surprise of my opponent.
For me, wargaming is one hobby whatever period of history or fantasy or sci-fi I am playing. My 28mm Impetus gauls have been pushed back in the painting queue becuase of my current enthusiasm for Warband. My friends are also trying to get me into 15mm Rapid Fire and 28mm ECW Baroque Impetus. I am currently reading a Joe Abercrombie Fantasy novel as well as Peter Youngs History of the ECW and I am one happy wargamer.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 27 April 2015, 12:14:04 PM
(...) No dry, dusty tomes to read. (...)
How sad ...
As a person who just may have the odd Orc or two in his collection I would just like to point out that all of mine are painted historically correctly, as swarthy dark skinned chaps, laid down by his worthyness JRR tolkien.
Orcs in any shade of green however are "Fantasy"
More seriously, we play this game for FUN. I collect armies for the periods that appeal to me, but will happily play any period and with a few exceptions any ruleset.
Anothers preference of period is not wrong just different. Fantasy is just another period in my book.
Quote from: fsn on 27 April 2015, 12:30:27 PM
There's fantasy and there's fantasy.
Goblins and hobbits and trolls (oh boy!) I left behind in about 1982
I don't think you did - You reguarly address me on this forum :)
Providing your fairies have accurately pointed up their transformation and damage immunity abilities I don't have a problem with that, though I may rue my decision to arm my orange-and-blue anthropomorphised orcas with photon blasters rather than pulse disrupters :)
I've come across plenty of fantasy panzergrenadiers in my half a century of gaming but, so far, no zombie ones .... time yet though!
For me Fantasy and Sci-Fi are just other periods alongside Ancients, WW2 or Napoleonics.
Quote from: Leman on 27 April 2015, 03:52:05 PM
I imagine my fairies are immune to photon blasts because photon blasts temporarily turn them into giant photon blaster devouring werewolves who cause the photon blaster operatives to hallucinate, see pink reptillian flying elephantine mammoths and flee. Imagine the surprise of my opponent.
Would you like one of my pills?
Same here, i have scifi, fantasy and historical, and they are all fun! I had the most fun in my young years pitching napoleons troops against dinosaurs and vietnam era soldiers versus king kong!
And think of how many historical variants have come out of a fantasy game like warmaster ;)
The only thing to consider is your own interests, you buy and play what you like!
Quote from: fsn on 27 April 2015, 04:42:39 PM
Would you like one of my pills?
I'll have a green one please dear lad!
Is it fantasists or is it skirmish gaming that is getting popular?
Most glossy skirmish games are fantasy/sci fi ones, so you might be seeing this more than anything.
Anyway those fantasy players may be future historical wargamers. I would not worry.
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 27 April 2015, 03:32:09 PM
A historical wargame scenario may be imperfect history, but that does not make it fantasy.
Opinions differ. ;)
And that's fine. :)
The only problem i ever have with this old and probably endless debate is the idea (either implicit or explicit) that historical gaming is
worthy whereas fantasy and sci fi gaming isn't. I just don't see that as valid. It still rears its head at the table with snide comments when fantasy or sci fi is on show.
Its all playing (fantasy gaming) with toy solders whether your toys are Voltiguers or orcs.
As long as its fun, who cares?
How does fantasy compare with, say AVBCW? Or indeed my current project "somewhere in the Middle East, 1960"? Certainly, I hope my
Ontoses Ontosi M48's will behave as well as I can mimic in 10mm, but surely my project is "fantasy"? I've just reread High Crusade and am wondering about a medieval vs alien game.
I'm still not going to but ents, trolls or dwarves. It just doesn't float my boat. Neither does the Indian mutiny nor the LoFA nor Macedonians.
Quote from: Luddite on 27 April 2015, 05:59:20 PM
As long as its fun, who cares?
Wot he said.
Undoubtedly the release by PD of Warband will create a flow of new non-historic wargamers onto the forum, and let us not make any bones about it the number of gamers who consider themselves 'fantasy' and 'SF' wargamers within the hobby both far exceed the number who consider themselves 'historical' wargamers. My own interests are mainly 'historical', but I acknowledge that the wargaming market is a plethora of different wargaming genres and PD have to exist in the market place as is. I am not concerned that we may over the coming months end up with literally hundreds (if not thousands) of new members on the forum who basically are interested in Warband fantasy. In my view one of the great strengths of the new Warband fantasy rules and this forum is that they both encourage players to create new army lists, many of which will be based using existing PD historic figure ranges. This will create a win - win situation for both historic and fantasy players as it 'hopefully' will encourage PD to continue expanding the historic figure ranges available knowing that the customer market for such figures has increased by the addition of fantasy buyers for the new figures /ranges.
PD is also re-releasing Future Commander in the BKC range of rules, this will undoubtedly also mean many new figure ranges in the SF genre. Again though this will have (IMO) more benefits than drawbacks as some of the SF gamers will also be already interested or will become interested in the BKC historic rules, thereby expanding the number base of players for the historic BKC rulesets. This will hopefully again encourage PD to continue to produce new figures and ranges.
We have to remember that Dave and Leon have to live in the real world and actually not only recoup their investments but also make a profit, but above all also look to take into account growth of the business so that in 1, 2, 5, or even 10 years time we are all still able to come on here and buy our own particular chosen type of wargaming miniatures.
Here endeth the Party Political Broadcast for the PD manufacturers and gamers party! :D
I started in Fantasy, went historical, then back...
Love it all (except 28mm Zombie-Vampire-Cowboys)!
I remember reading a similar discussion way back in 'Battle' magazine
(but with more entrenched opinions and vitriolic letters). This time, its
much more civilised, and better for it.
I expect most wargamers have some experience of both (with the pervasive
GW influence). I'm certainly happy to play both and do so regularly
(Warmaster, Epic & Black Powder).
I do, however, agree with Luddite :
>>The only problem i ever have with this old and probably endless debate is
the idea (either implicit or explicit) that historical gaming is worthy whereas
fantasy and sci fi gaming isn't.<<
Even though I love both, there is a certain reluctance to 'own up' to Fantasy or
Sci-Fi gaming. Strange. Anyway, as I'm now approaching 50, I've decided that
I really don't give a stuff about the nay-sayers - its all good (historical, sci-fi or
fantasy). Just don't get me started on people who play those silly skirmish
games... :D
Phil
Friend turned up unexpectedly this evening so I fed him coffee and biscuits and inveigled him into a game of FRAG Deadlands (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4023/frag-deadlands) - Zombie-Vampire-Cowboys AND a skirmish (if a single figure counts as skirmish?) game!
My Harrowed Gunslinger narrowly beat The Man In The Black Duster.
If you have a problem with that I'll see you come noon .... in the bar .... might even buy ya a sasparilla! :)
Quote from: Leman on 27 April 2015, 03:52:05 PM
When I started this thread I wondered how long it would be before the old chestnut of "all wargaming is fantasy" would crop up. I beg to differ. Panzergrenadiers are not fantasy; zombie panzergrenadiers definitely are. There is also the point that if fantasy 'unleashes the imagination' then if you're going to photon blast my fairies, then I imagine my fairies are immune to photon blasts because photon blasts temporarily turn them into giant photon blaster devouring werewolves who cause the photon blaster operatives to hallucinate, see pink reptillian flying elephantine mammoths and flee. Imagine the surprise of my opponent.
Well said, on several points.
I play mainly historical games, but also some near future/sci-fi. I enjoy both and wouldn't want to change. I might move back into 'classic' fantasy games of Dwarves vs Goblins at some point, just as a trip down memory lane to my formative gaming years. Sadly I have plenty of stuff in the queue to stop me indulgin, but the release of 'Dragon Rampant' may change this :D.
Back to the original question. Are the fantasists taking over? Not really.
Remember last year when it was "Mongol this" and "Jingis that"?
These things will pass. The Dark Lord is wise and we should trust in him.
Are the fantasists taking over? No.
Quote from: Leman on 27 April 2015, 11:46:52 AM
Was a time you couldn't move on the forum for Centurion tanks.
Aye. Boring wasn't it? Nothing but tanks and Aztecs to talk about...
QuoteNow it's goblins, dwarves and fairies.
Is it? And thats a bad thing?
QuoteWhatever happened to history?
Nothing, its still going strong.
[/quote]
"Enough historical out there, we need fantasy! A fantasy range of buildings please, unit cards, unofficial game of thrones lists please."
- Warband Facebook Page
*Falsetto*
Is this the real life...
Is it just fantasy?
No escape from reality ? :D
Cheers - Phil
Some of my fondest wargame memories are of my English Civil War army fighting a friend's Orcs, or, when my Medieval longbowmen arrow stormed a unit of Goblin wolf riders, or my Men-at-arms fighting to the last man (and woman) against the Evil Skeleton hordes.
I like historical armies but have no problem setting them against 'fantasy' armies, in fact I'm sort of setting up a 'fantasy world' with various pike and shot' armies against more primitive human and fantasy foes.
As long as all things are equal...things like the effects of magic are hammered out before the game starts, I really have no problem with 'fantasy', or sci-fi; my Vietnam war Americans spend most of their time fighting 'Bugs' or giant robots!
As someone has already said, as long as you enjoy yourself who cares?
Also hasn't there been some discussion about 'Warband Historical'? Perhaps we're taking about the wrong thing here, perhaps the reason Fantasy appears to be taking over/more popular is because the rules are more 'fun'/easier to get a grip on.
Coming from a generation of gamers who had to write their own rules I have to say I'm not impressed with most commercial rules, it often seems to me that you're fighting the rules not your opponent.
Techno will be pleased to know that he's been rescued from the Borg hive mind and has had most of the implants removed. Now, in my mind Techno looks like this ...
(http://gandt.blogs.brynmawr.edu/files/2009/02/seven-of-nine.jpg)
Fantasy is wonderful!
Hi all my take on this is we are all wargamers with different tastes, so as far as I'm concerned the more the merrier.
Take care
Andy
Quote from: fsn on 28 April 2015, 08:19:10 AM
Techno will be pleased to know that he's been rescued from the Borg hive mind and has had most of the implants removed. Now, in my mind Techno looks like this ...
(http://gandt.blogs.brynmawr.edu/files/2009/02/seven-of-nine.jpg)
Fantasy is wonderful!
Why
is everyone so unkind to him, I ask myself.
I may not be interested in a lot of historical stuff ie AWI, European medieval or even TYW but I don't go round poo-pooing people who do. To my mind the word wargaming covers all aspects of warfare be it two Neanderthals slugging it out with thigh bones or two starship troopers in a null-g environment firing at each other with beam weapons.
I think the problem lies in that because historical gaming set the precedence, some wargamers think they belong to an elite club as the senior service, rather like the navy being the senior service of the armed forces.
This is course utter tosh. It's case of whatever floats your boat.
#fsn 'Jingis'? Haven't seen that one for a while.
Quote from: Subedai on 28 April 2015, 12:36:31 PM
#fsn 'Jingis'? Haven't seen that one for a while.
Really? Shows how much I know about Mongols. Are we back to "Gengis"?
Quote from: fsn on 28 April 2015, 08:19:10 AM
Techno will be pleased to know that he's been rescued from the Borg hive mind and has had most of the implants removed. Now, in my mind Techno looks like this ...
(http://gandt.blogs.brynmawr.edu/files/2009/02/seven-of-nine.jpg)
Fantasy is wonderful!
I worry about you, Nobby ! X_X
Cheers - 7 of 9 (Formally the Borg Queen......apparently.)
Quote from: fsn on 28 April 2015, 12:51:07 PM
Really? Shows how much I know about Mongols. Are we back to "Gengis"?
Naaah. Chinggis if anything. I believe Jinghis with an aitch is the German variant.
Quote from: Luddite on 27 April 2015, 05:59:20 PM
Opinions differ. ;)
And that's fine. :)
The only problem i ever have with this old and probably endless debate is the idea (either implicit or explicit) that historical gaming is worthy whereas fantasy and sci fi gaming isn't. I just don't see that as valid. It still rears its head at the table with snide comments when fantasy or sci fi is on show.
Its all playing (fantasy gaming) with toy solders whether your toys are Voltiguers or orcs.
As long as its fun, who cares?
On (almost) all of which we can happily agree! :)
Chris
You've probably all been wondering why I have remained silent throughout this debate. [-(
Well, I bit my lip an helbd my tungg an iz thukin thoar .....
(btw, hih Borg Qween an sevenanine arr dibbrent karrikturs)
Quote from: Westmarcher on 28 April 2015, 05:47:39 PM
(btw, hih Borg Qween an sevenanine arr dibbrent karrikturs)
Oh, yes indeedy !
In Nobby's original fantasy......(Of imagining us all as different female 'personalities').....I was apparently the Borg Queen.
I now seem to be 7 of 9 (In Nobby's fevered imagination...... X_X)
He's probably taken too many of the pink pills again. ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Come on Nobby.....How are you imagining everyone else ?
Westmarcher is obviously a Western gal
(http://images.halloweencostumes.com/products/4448/1-1/sexy-shotgun-sheriff-costume.jpg)
Chris Pringle is a Christmassy Carol
(http://www.deepbottle.com/img/Beauty/sexy-santa-claus/sexy-santa-claus18.jpg)
Mad Lemmey is a Rock Chick
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/08/8f/63/088f63159ac6c480330219feb941576b.jpg)
Fierce Kitty is something akin to Eartha Kitt's Catwoman, Subedai is a rather prim but naughty Raj lady, Steeleye a svelte android, Ithorial is a elf warrior maiden.
Well you get the drift.
I think of myself as more mage than warrior :)
(http://pre02.deviantart.net/5146/th/pre/f/2015/117/1/3/ashe_the_frost_archer_by_riddle1-d8r9w2x.jpg)
Potato:potato
(Doesn't work so well in text.)
But I think you'll find you're wearing green.
Meanwhile in Runcorn,Nobby considers if he should make yet another purchase
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50b4c209e4b0214dc1f662ff/t/50d86cd0e4b0a05702a09a64/1356360917423/Biggins-1-4.jpg)
X_X Is there a horror genre, now?
[btw, ref. me - not bad ... and the dress is better than the last time (doesn't make my bum look so big ...) B)
I think I could get into this 'fantasy' malarkey.
Do you have one with my guns out? If so, you may expect a letter soon from my lawyers - well, they're always asking me but I just say, "No" (usually) ...]
Quote
Mad Lemmey is a Rock Chick
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/08/8f/63/088f63159ac6c480330219feb941576b.jpg)
Well, I've been upgraded from Cher to a younger model, RESULT! :D
Quote from: mad lemmey on 28 April 2015, 07:09:49 PM
Well, I've been upgraded from Cher to a younger model, RESULT! :D
I like to keep things fresh.
And back on topic;
I came to Pendraken for the fantasy but will stay for the historical, I 've always been an historical man but there's nothing wrong with a little fantasy ;)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 27 April 2015, 12:52:46 PM
Yes, but unless you can turn up towing a dead troll behind you, your views on the colour of trolls is worth no more, or less, than mine.
Last fantasy game I played I lost because Dwarven bear-mounted heavy cavalry, supported by a Dwarven mage riding a gryphon, sandwiched my paladin general. Previous game that afternoon my army had been entirely composed of "trees" ... OK, Ents and Huorns but basically tree models :) Free your imagination!
Hang on, I've never played you but that sounds eerily like the last game I took my crusading Dwarven Runic Order Bear Knights out for a spin. Those dastardly Elf boyars just couldn't stand against our Ursine might! Although our noble allies from the west did get badly chewed up by Baba Yaga and her hut... they obviously need more bears instead of paltry warhorses!
On an actual thread related note, I get the impression the people playing lots of Warband are also historical players and play and collect many historical periods as well - I don't think there's any "loss" of historicals here, just a "this is new and we fancy a bash with it", and after a while it'll be the go to fantasy game when people fancy some fantasy action as opposed to "we will NEVER PLAY ANYTHING ELSE froth froth gnash" ;)