Im looking for a good set of wargaming rules for Ancients. Romans & their allies, enemies. 10mm or even 6mm. Decent rules but not overly complicated, with army lists for different armies like Romans, Carthage, etc.
Any recommendations or reviews?
Perhaps a battle report as an example of how the rules work?
Ive seen a few around , but am not sure which are best.
Polemos/SPQR
Hail Caesar
Impetus
To the Strongest
I am in the USA, so some may be harder to get. I prefer a dead tree version over PDF.
Let me know your opinion.
Big question
I like Basic Impetus which is free, but overly keen on the fullprice version
To the strongest is intriguing me at present as well but having a think first
Not a huge fan of HC but it has its merits and f you like Warmaster you will like it but I think it need quite a few house rules
Not a huge fan of the Polemos system, but the rules tend not to work in my opinion
I like Sword and Spear as well and it has some interesting ideas in it
My two all time favourites are Vis Bellica and Armati but might be hard to find now
I only play Impetus and DBA, except for the Dark Ages, where I play both Dux Bellorum and Dux Britanniarum.
My first vote would be for Impetus. We played 4 games and immediately rebased several thousand DBx figures, totally sold, works quickly, efficiently and offers good decisions making gameplay. However it is in dire need of having all the errata and updates consolidated - a 2nd edition is due but not sure when. Good online support though.
However I think that TTS has some real merit - but probably for large multi player/ convention style games. Haven't actually played yet though but intend to spend some time with Simon at Salute - maybe get a bit of a go then.
Sword & Spear has its admirers - it has good points (C&C) and poor (combat and lists) - only played a couple of games though and I suspect they are much better if heavy infantry is your bag, we tried them with late Romans and Sassanids and they did not work well.
Sorry haven't got any AAR to point you to
Personally I'd steer clear of Polemos - I've tried to like them (all the other periods), I really have but they just fail for me - too clunky. Similarly Hail Caesar is lovely as a book but not so much as a rule set - very loose and wooly, requires substantial input off your own back.
Hope that helps
If Hail Caesar is like Warmaster and uses the rules that missile fire does not cause casualties, but only "disrupts" a unit- then its NOT for me.
Missile fire causes for casualties in Warmaster doesn't it?, or have I been playing it wrong?. In HC they do for sure
WM can cause casualties with combined missile fire - but light fire does only tend to disrupt (in a slightly strange way).
HC is pretty good - we played it heavily for some time - but struggled to add the Fantasy elements we wanted to it.
Impetus - read lots of good things about (see above!) but couldn't understand it well enough to attempt to play it.
I like the way missile fire in WMA works - it doesn't kill units, but slows them down and makes them harder to co-ordinate.
HC is probably more like BP, which DID evolve from WM, but solves the problems that meant I never played the musket adaptations of WM,like ACWmaster.
Instead of hits removing bases, it causes hits which stay with the unit. These can be rallied off. When a unit receives as many hits as its stamina it is 'Shaken'. Hits over Stamina act as a minus on morale tests (these excess ones are removed after the test). A typical BP unit gets 3 shooting and 6 Melee dice, 4+ hits. Saves ('Morale') usually 4+ - some units may get 3+ or poor units 5+.
Because a Brigade Commander can only rally one unit per turn, it takes a long time to get a battered brigade back into shape, meaning reserves are important (We play that you can rally 'Broken Brigades')
TFL also do a set of ancients
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22 (http://toofatlardies.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22)
But you'd have to print them yourself
WRG 6th Edition
well somebody had to say it :P
The only wargames rules I know of where your late Roman legionary would need a golf cart to lug around all their missile weapons Pilum/Javelin/Darts, and they all caused casulties to the charging hairy barbarians (all at different ranges and all fired in the same turn). Very old school and the Barkerese is a bit heavy going at times but still one of their finest works.
Warmaster Ancients for big games and DBA 3.0 for small ones at the moment.
I could be remembering wrong. I played Warmaster when it was first released. Missiles didn't destroy units tgen, if I remember right. It was something I disliked.
Having played Warmaster since about a fortnight before it was officially released I can assure you firing always caused casualties but fire factors of infantry stands were usually low enough that it was rare to kill things with random missile fire.
Massed bowfire and/or Artillery was a different matter.
Killing things by driving them back with missile fire was always interesting because players often forgot it was possible.
I always liked the way WMx dealt with missile fire as normally inconvenient but occasionally deadly, which seemed about right to me.
Another vote for Impetus, have a look at basic Impetus which is free, impetus is the same game system, just more developed.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 20 April 2015, 07:18:34 PM
Warmaster Ancients for big games and DBA 3.0 for small ones at the moment.
What's DBA?
I only played Warmaster fantasy, not Ancients. Was it very difficult to destroy units with missiles then, not impossible? You were pushed back or disrupted? I guess it doesn't matter it was a long time ago. I just didn't like that missile fire didn't have a large effect.
Each to their own but real missile fire tends not to have a large effect.
DBA - De Bellis Antiquitatis (https://ancientwargaming.wordpress.com/an-introduction-to-dba/) is a fast play set of ancients rules where each army consists of 12 bases or elements with enough figures to show what it represents. Cheap to build armies so ideal if on a budget, small surface required so ideal if space is as limited as budget, quick to play so ideal if you are both cash and time poor! :)
Latest version is a huge hardback which bumps the price up quite a bit.
It includes huge numbers of army lists for armies, some or many of which you'll never have heard of, and a list of their historical opponents which makes it tempting to collect several of those relatively cheap armies.
Thanks for all the great advice & info.
I'd suggest Impetus as well - I really like DBA but not so much DBM (the "many units" larger version) but even so I reckon Impetus is a better game. And Basic Impetus is a free download with just as many lists on the dadi & piombo site :)
Hello Bloodaxe
Other options to consider are:-
Rally Round the King - written originally for Fantasy but has Ancient Army lists etc. By Two Hour Wargames, so readily available in hard copy for you. Main page here http://www.twohourwargames.com/rally-round-the-king.html (http://www.twohourwargames.com/rally-round-the-king.html). Local Campaign system and sample Historical army lists here http://site.twohourwargames.com/Updates/HistoricalSamplerComplete.pdf (http://site.twohourwargames.com/Updates/HistoricalSamplerComplete.pdf). Free Asian Army lists for download here http://www.twohourwargames.com/rarokiasarli.html (http://www.twohourwargames.com/rarokiasarli.html) Great for solo or cooperative play. They have a free set of rules for download http://www.twohourwargames.com/chrefive.html (http://www.twohourwargames.com/chrefive.html) which show their reaction system.
You specifically mentioned Romans so you might want to have a look at Avgvstvs to Avrelian in the Too Fat Lardies stable. Introduction form author here http://www.philhendry.me.uk/avgvstvs-to-avrelian/the-avgvstvs-to-avrelian/welcome.html (http://www.philhendry.me.uk/avgvstvs-to-avrelian/the-avgvstvs-to-avrelian/welcome.html) Available from here http://toofatlardies.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22 (http://toofatlardies.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22) pdf or tablet versions only but you might have a local printing shop that could do this for you.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Quote from: GordonY on 20 April 2015, 07:11:01 PM
WRG 6th Edition
I preferred 5th Edition to be fair, a simpler and quicker game
Cheers
Ian
I think I may actually have a few Warmaster Ancients books somewhere in a box. I should dig them out.
I'm going to look around at the rules you have mentioned, find some reviews, maybe some sample games to see how it plays.
See http://www.dadiepiombo.it/images/stories/dp/impetus2.html (http://www.dadiepiombo.it/images/stories/dp/impetus2.html) for Impetus incl free Basic rules, army lists etc
I'd go with Fenton's suggestion of Armati. It's old now but still gives a reasonable game and can be up and downscaled, so you can start playing a DBA-like game with just a few bases and then build up to larger things, if that's what you want.
That said, I'm also now looking at BAsic Impetus, having wtached some interesting youtube clips explaining its workings.
Why go for a reasonable game when you can go for a really good one.
And now for something completely different ;). You might consider, particularly for the period you mention, using the Commands and Colors Ancients board game, and replacing the blocks with figures. I had not wargamed Ancients for 30years, but CCA got me back into it, and I had so much fun, that I now have 6mm (sorry Leon :) ) armies numbering thousands. It is simple to learn, hard to master, and the Epic version gives great games even for one player a side.
Mollinary
Hi Bloodaxe,
Quote from: Bloodaxe on 20 April 2015, 05:56:41 PM
Polemos/SPQR
The Polemos stable of rules aren't for me. They contain some decent ideas, but the rules are poorly executed and clunky.
QuoteHail Caesar
Basically Rick Priestly's rewrite of the Warmaster rules after GW dropped them.
They are 'loose' in terms of play style and rules, with 'gentlemanly conduct' being required. They do however give a decent game.
The books are pricey, with about 20% of the pages covering the rules and the remaining 80% being the obligatory eye-candy filler.
QuoteImpetus
Too fiddly for me.
QuoteTo the Strongest
Never played them, sorry.
My recommendations would be:
DBM - its the fully realised 'De Bellis' ancients game. Be warned though these are 'love/hate' rules and a lot of people hate them - I'm in the 'love them'. DBM dominant global ancients tournament ruleset for many years.
They are 'geometric', and a weird mix of grand tactical and micromanagement.
But they allow for a great deal of army list customisation, and reward tactical play (particularly flanking moves).
You will be looking at 70-90 'elements' (40mm wide units) with typically 2-4 figures on each base.
The rules are a small booklet, and the armies are contained in 4 similar 'army books'. For Rome you'll need Book 2. I'd advise simply getting all 4 books - they contain everything you'll ever need for ever ancient army from 3000BC-1500AD.
My personal rating: 9/10There's a DBMM version, but it's inferior to DBM as it adds in all manner of unnecessary complications.
My personal rating: 4/10DBA is the simpler, smaller scale sister rules to DBM. Version 3 was recently released and are a great improvement on the previous version (while changing very little!) At its base, it's played with 12 elements (units), but you can play it as a 'big battle' version with more flexibility and more troops. BB-DBA is a good compromise between DBA and DBM.
DBA has the advantage of containing all the rules and every army list from 3000BC-1500AD in the one book.
My personal rating: 8/10l'Art de la Guerre. I recently played a game of this originally French game. It's clearly a mash-up of DBM and Field of Glory. It was quite an interesting game although the rules drafting (and translation from French) made a few situations difficult to resolve. The rules are also poorly laid out. However, it gives you all the rules and army lists you'll need and might be worth a go.
My personal rating: ?/10 - not played it enough, but from the early experiences 5/10Field of Glory. This killed off DBM as the default tournament ruleset. It's very popular but in my view far more fiddly than DBx, and requires you to remember some weird and obscure combat factors. Also, the best result on your d6 rolls is usually '5'. @-)
I played FoG for about 2 years and then in the middle of one game, I just sort of woke up and thought, 'this game just ain't fun'. Never played it since.
Investing in the game you'll be looking at buying the rules and about 16 army books (although if its Rome you want you can probably cover your bases with one or two of those books).
My personal rating: 0/10Warmaster Ancients. Its a decent game, although for me, it gets a bit lost when it comes to multiple melees. For some reason it's always felt to me that the ancients version doesn't quite work as well as the fantasy version. Still well worth a go though.
My personal rating: 7/10Warhammer Ancients Battles. Now then, this is based on earlier versions of GWs Warhammer Fantasy rules. It has all the same quirks that GW rules share, but if you come from a GW background this might be a good transitional game into ancients. The core rules give you two armies (Rome and Gaul if I recall), and it makes for an OK game (if you like the GW rules concepts).
Though written with 28mm figures in mind, it can easily be played with 10mm figures (simply put 'X' 10mm figs on the figure base rather than 1 28mm figure!)
My personal rating: 5/10
Leman wrote: .
QuoteWhy go for a reasonable game when you can go for a really good one.
fair point and one of the reasons I'm investigating Impetus. I like Aramti but there's soemthign lacking, at least for me.
Been a long while since I played Armati and I remember being a bit unimpressed. Wouldn't touch FoG with a bargepole now, DBM is way fiddly and faffy and never seems to give a great game, Polemos rules had some nice touches but a lot of effort for negligible gain, Warmaster Ancients seems ok, Warhammer Ancients and similar just ain't my cup of tea (not interested in single figure casualty removal these days!), and the newer ones I haven't yet tried.
Impetus was simple, plays well, gives good period feel (although we don't match up ahistorical forces, which always helps!) and was easy to pick up. I would recommend DBA at the drop of a hat though, if the new rules weren't so expensive!
Only ever played DBA to version 2.1, but I like it a lot, building armies is inexpensive and it plays well to a definite conclusion in a reasonable time. this is a great way to get into Ancients, right up to early Renaissance.
Impetus has been my favourite set since it first appeared. Admittedly I play most of my games in the Italian Wars period, but I have also played Barons War, 100 Years War and Roman invasion of Britain using them. They do require some markers to record deterioration of troops through the battle, disorder and troops on opportunity (I now use MDF markers and casualty figures). The designation of troops is also in shorthand Italian (as these are an Italian set), the author stating that this then gives a worldwide system so players from around the world will be familiar with the terms. However many of these designations are like English in reverse, eg CL Cavalleri Legiere (I think), which is LC Light Cavalry in English. I got the hang of this in my first game. The rules are now supported by their own downloadable magazine.
Never played Armati but one of my regular opponents used to play them and says there are some interesting concepts in them.
DBM - hated them. Played them about three times and it just felt like playing chess - which you can buy off the shelf and play immediately.
Field of Glory - what an enormous rip-off - even Osprey have dropped them now. Without a doubt, in 50 years of wargaming, the worst, least enjoyable game I have ever played - half a game then went home in disgust and immediately sold my copy.
The only other rules I have played and enjoyed in the pre-gunpowder period are Dan Mersey's Glutter of Ravens, which has now been updated to Dux Bellorum, and Two Fat Lardies' Dux Britanniarum. Two quite different games covering the same period. Bothe are enormous fun and both cope with very Late Roman Britain.
Although they don't seem popular here, I have never had a bad game using Sword and Spear. Quick to learn, a result in 3 hours and in my opinion jolly good fun what what
Just for nostalgia, last year I dragged out Don Featherstone's Wargame book and had myself a little bash using what I think are Tony Bath's orginal rules.
Perhaps not so realistic, but provided a fun game in about 2 hours - Roamns v Dacians (wholme I hadn't heard of when I bought the book!).
Predictably the Romans won, it being nigh on impossible for half-naked savages to score a hit on a fully armed pilum-wielding chap.
I a dusty forgotten box, in a back closet, I found a copy of Warmaster Ancients & Warmaster Ancient Armies. I only looked them over- but some nice eye candy!! Pendraken is in there too. (also some others) I think Im sold on 10mm over 6mm. I could also use them if there is a Warbands Ancients ever released. :)
Some beautiful armies and pictures.
If you've managed to find a copy of Warmaster Ancients Ancient Armies you're lucky, they are a great set of rules and were designed for 10mm figures.
They can seem a bit artificial and gamy but the mechanics work well and scale up easily, you can play a 1 person a side game of about 1500 points in an evening or a 6000 point aside multiplayer game in a day.
Here's a shot of some crusaders hitting the flank of some Seljuks in a big WMA game based on Doryleum.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa242/danandsan/CrusaderssuprisetheSeljuks2.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/danandsan/media/CrusaderssuprisetheSeljuks2.jpg.html)
That's rather spectacular !! :-bd
Great stuff, Dan.
Cheers - Phil
DEUS VOLT!
Lovely :)
I kind of like Warmaster (Ancients & Fantasy) but the Fantasy versions' supremely hard cavalry and "whoever has highest CV wins on first charge and keeps winning" approach rather soured our group. The Ancients version addresses their concerns (and mine, even if I was willing to ignore them for the chance of a game or two!) but Warmaster just won't float their boat anymore no matter what.
As I actually prefer Impetus anyway I can't say I'm fussed by that :)
DanJ beautiful figures! Are those Pendraken? 10mm?
That's a beautiful sight Dan and, knowing Warmaster as I do, those Seljuks are about to get MASHED! X_X
What drugs is this guy on? :o
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Warmaster-Ancients-/161489436415?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2599853eff
Thats the book I found in the closet, along with Ancient Armies too.
I have a copy of ancients , hardly used though the binding is so poor its falling apart
Wow! I have a copy of both the army book and the rules, in good condition, so am I rich? ;)
Mollinary
'2 Watching'...
Presumably out of amazement and curiosity about whether this insane price will be paid! ;D
Buy it now! No way!
WMA and the two army books do go for a decent price on eBay - around £20 to £30.
$300 would seem a touch optimistic - I don't quite get the listings on eBay and Amazon for such high prices - unless someone does actually buy them. Perhaps its time for some speculative listings...
Probably just driving up prices for the automated price checking bots, then get a few quid more than you might have done when you actually flog it for real...
Those look spectacular, but no way are they ancients.
Ok, perhaps it should be "pointy stick rules set" ;)
;D 555555
Just checked my bookshelf and found Warmaster Ancients and Warmaster Medieval. Parker! Go and fetch the Roller. Warmaster original now resides with my nephew.
I recommend warmaster ancients, for sure.
I've been enjoying DBA 3 lately, good for quick small sized games. Sword and Spear has also been a lot of fun to play, unique command system and fun combat mechanics. Both of Neil Thomas' games, Ancient and Medieval Wargaming and One Hour Wargaming are great for a quick fix or mini campaign. I also have been playing John Acar's Throw Me a 6 using DBA lists, this has been my favorite so far. I'd like to give warmaster a try again using the skirmish mod for it.
My go to system is DBA, though I have not played a competitive game in 3 years and have yet to make the jump from 2.2 to 3.0.
If Hail Ceasar is like Black Powder this means you will have to put some work in making the lists you want. For some this would be part of the hobby, for others a chore. Really depends on your cup of tea.
I played Basic Impetus for a time and liked it, but ultimately gave up on it because a) armies were a bit more expensive then DBA, b) the battle system had too many modifiers to take into consideration for my liking.
War and Conquest and Clash of Empires are also rules-sets out there. There are also the theme and period specific free rules by the Perfect Captain. There is also Mantic's Kings of War (there is a free historical adaption).
Really speaking it partly depends on style of play. Do you like the use of special rules in order to add flavour to units? Do you prefer that the mechanisms take care of any differences? Do you like buckets of dice? Do you like spending time building scenarios and army lists or prefer to have them ready and just get stuck in? Do you wish detailed movement rules or a rough and tumble?
Hail cheesy have lists now, rather Barkeresque...
I played DBA 20+ years ago. Hated it. It appeared to be "Bring lines into contact, Roll Dice until one person managed to score 2 more than opponent, thus giving advantage from there on"
At it's core that describes all wargaming...
... and rather a lot of Real World (tm) battles too!
Evidently DBA=MARMITE.
Warmaster Ancients has the advantage of being able to scale up from 1:1 games with 1000 points to multi player games with hundreds of bases per side. The rules stay exactly the same, it just takes longer and that's mostly people taking.
Say what you will about DBA, but DBA 2.2 is one of the few games that I have seen properly rewarding pinning a foe and then flanking them. That was the death sentence and the game rewarded you for pulling it off.