Hi All
Just recieved masters to finish the ww2 french 1940 :D
Walking/ready rifle 45°
Moving rifle 60°
Officer, cautioning wait, pistol, tunic
Senior Officer, standing gesturing, tunic, kepi
Senior Officer, standing hands in pockets, sheepskin coat, kepi
RTO, on knees, bonnet de police
Hotchkiss M1914 & gunner
Loader
MMtr gunner, operating sight
MMtr loader, bomb on knee
Artillery crew officer, shouting, tunic
Gunner, pulling lanyard, bonnet de police
Gunner with shell on ground, bonnet de police
More to come will be prone Lmg
at crew
Dave
ps any others you can think of but supply pics please :)
(http://www.mmenterprises.co.uk/chad.jpg)
Wot? no ....
Sitting, eating cheese, bonnet de police
Standing, hands raised above head, helmet
OK, to be serious, no infantry using VB rifle-grenade? I understood they were widely used.
(http://www.151ril.com/images/bank/2/094.jpg)
VB Launcher definitely.
Dragoons Porte - in their short leather jackets
Quote from: fred 12df on 17 April 2015, 02:50:41 PM
VB Launcher definitely.
Dragoons Porte - in their short leather jackets
I agree !
"Dragons portés"
Edit to add the "correct" name, because can't use the preview button...
Wot? No! You can't do this. I have FINISHED my French WWII. I don't need any more. I've got the Lorraines.
That's just not FAIR! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Quote from: fsn on 17 April 2015, 05:06:59 PM
Wot? No! You can't do this. I have FINISHED my French WWII. I don't need any more. I've got the Lorraines.
That's just not FAIR! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Just keep rubbing in the cream and I'm sure your Lorraines will go away.
Quote from: Subedai on 17 April 2015, 05:22:31 PM
Just keep rubbing in the cream and I'm sure your Lorraines will go away.
=O =O =O
This is brilliant.
We do need the VB rifle grenade though
Quote from: fsn on 17 April 2015, 05:06:59 PM
Wot? No! You can't do this. I have FINISHED my French WWII. I don't need any more. I've got the Lorraines.
That's just not FAIR! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
look at it as an excuse to buy them all again.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 17 April 2015, 02:04:26 PM
Wot? no ....
Sitting, eating cheese, bonnet de police
Standing, hands raised above head, helmet
OK, to be serious, no infantry using VB rifle-grenade? I understood they were widely used.
(http://www.151ril.com/images/bank/2/094.jpg)
Also some running away and a pack of "dropped" rifles. (sorry could not resist)
Hi
Sounds great. Any chance of some without the greatcoat, would really like a figure in Adrian, puttees and tunic - could be used in lots of armies/theatres.
The request for Dragons portés sounds good - be handy for Vichy European troops and AFV crews too.
You said AT crews - are these to replace the current French AT crews? Other suggestions - troops in large berets to cover Alpine and Fortress troops, and of course motorcycles and combinations.
From 1923 but not changed much apart from the size of the beret
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-09896%2C_Franz%C3%B6sische_Alpenj%C3%A4ger_in_den_Strassen_Buers.jpg)
(http://www.jarrelook.co.uk/Urbex/Ouvrage%20Latiremont/Soldiers_in_line.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/26/da/3f/26da3fde7e7b92ed5f77360860373043.jpg)
(http://www.cycletownusa.com/01200FRANCE7ArmeeAvant1940B.jpg)
Any chance of sneak peeks at the masters?
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Thanks for the pics, anybody have a pic of the of the dragon troops in leather! the pics will go to the designer for the next batch. I take it the beret was larger in ww2. I've order a copy of the french army 1940 for the more exotic figures.
Yes I will change the existing AT team, new FG as well.
Dave
Quote from: GrumpyOldMan on 17 April 2015, 11:05:42 PM
Hi
Sounds great. Any chance of some without the greatcoat, would really like a figure in Adrian, puttees and tunic - could be used in lots of armies/theatres.
The request for Dragons portés sounds good - be handy for Vichy European troops and AFV crews too.
You said AT crews - are these to replace the current French AT crews? Other suggestions - troops in large berets to cover Alpine and Fortress troops, and of course motorcycles and combinations.
From 1923 but not changed much apart from the size of the beret
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-09896%2C_Franz%C3%B6sische_Alpenj%C3%A4ger_in_den_Strassen_Buers.jpg)
(http://www.jarrelook.co.uk/Urbex/Ouvrage%20Latiremont/Soldiers_in_line.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/26/da/3f/26da3fde7e7b92ed5f77360860373043.jpg)
(http://www.cycletownusa.com/01200FRANCE7ArmeeAvant1940B.jpg)
Any chance of sneak peeks at the masters?
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Pics will be after Salute, I don't want to blow leons brain
Dave
Quote from: GrumpyOldMan on 17 April 2015, 11:05:42 PM
troops in large berets to cover Alpine and Fortress troops (...)
How could I forget that.. :-\ ;)
They'll also be useful for
Norway! :) ( and some fights in the Alps )
The beret of alpines troops ( "Chasseurs Alpins" ) was (and is ) larger, and is called "tarte" ( pie )
See this for a chasseur alpin in Narvik, 1940
(http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/8215/23818215/pics/754331120.jpg)
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 17 April 2015, 08:28:30 PM
Also some running away and a pack of "dropped" rifles. (sorry could not resist)
>:(
( I know it's a joke, but some people still believe it... in 45 days, 552,900 soldiers were killed or wounded for bot sides, 342,000 of them were french.. For Normandy 1944, (3 months) the allied lost 209,000 men, while the german lost 240,000 and many prisonners. (1) I let you compute for daily casualties ... in less time, more losses in 1940 . This "myth" was largely spread by Vichy propaganda, for ages... )
I know it's fun, but I always overreact ;) sorry
(1) add 50,000 civilians.Edit : to add a date
With the skis he cant use, no straps to connect to the boots...
Well organised the Norway campaign.
IanS
Quote from: ronan on 18 April 2015, 09:37:43 AM
How could I forget that.. :-\ ;)
They'll also be useful for Norway! :) ( and some fights in the Alps )
The beret of alpines troops ( "Chasseurs Alpins" ) was (and is ) larger, and is called "tarte" ( pie )
See this for a chasseur alpin in Narvik, 1940
(http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/8215/23818215/pics/754331120.jpg)
>:(
( I know it's a joke, but some people still believe it... in 45 days, 552,900 soldiers were killed or wounded for bot sides, 342,000 of them were french.. For Normandy 1944, (3 months) the allied lost 209,000 men, while the german lost 240,000 and many prisonners. (1) I let you compute for daily casualties ... in less time, more losses in 1940 . This "myth" was largely spread by Vichy propaganda, for ages... )
I know it's fun, but I always overreact ;) sorry
(1) add 50,000 civilians.
Edit : to add a date
I could do a surrendering figure to go with the Brit in the BEF range?
Dave
Quote from: Dave on 18 April 2015, 10:13:06 AM
I could do a surrendering figure to go with the Brit in the BEF range?
Dave
Sorry, as I said, I overreacted ;)
That would be a good idea
Quote from: ronan on 18 April 2015, 10:19:15 AM
Sorry, as I said, I overreacted ;)
That would be a good idea
Was the alpine uniform tunic and breeches and putteess the same cut as the standard foot :-\
Dave
Surrendering or panicking or dead/wounded figures are often handy these days - there's lots of rules sets they're useful in, from PBI to 5core to Bolt Action, or the Commander series for modelling suppressed units without using a dice etc etc.
So not a bad idea, in all fairness :)
Ofc you'd need "Brits brewin tea" or "Gunner running with helmet covering tea pot instead of his head" etc ;)
I'm sorry, but that overlarge beret is very ... camp.
Monty, no less, is full of praise for the fighting qualities of the average footfrogger, to coin a term.
I was not disparaging the fighting abilities ... just the beret.
Didn't mean to imply you were - I got to this thread a bit late. Sorry if I gave an unintended impression.
Hi Ronan
It was only a tease, and no offence was intended.
I am fully aware that it was the Government that surrendered not the Troops or the population. Many of the British only got off the beach at Dunkirk due to the French holding the Germans back, and many of those French soldiers returned to Britain to continue the fight.
Mark
Quote from: Dave on 18 April 2015, 10:35:23 AM
Was the alpine uniform tunic and breeches and putteess the same cut as the standard foot :-\
Dave
I think they used many things.. what would be useful for gaming ...? I won't give a good advice, as I mainly use skirmish (CoC) so I need ALL ;) May we use a poll ? ( with the "tarte" and skis ? )
Here's a summarize of what I've got (
I should write something on my blog, as Vichy stole their story as soon as november, 1940 ... :-\ )
Narvik, Norway, 1940 :
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur%20alpin%20Narvik%2001.jpg) (http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur%20alpin%20Narvik%2002.jpg)
They also fought with "regular" helmets..
In the Alps :
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur%20alpin%20alpes%2001.jpg) (http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur%20alpin%20alpes%2002.jpg)
and more :
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur_alpin_01.jpg)
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur_alpin_02.jpg)
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur_alpin_03.jpg)
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur_alpin_04.jpg)
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur_alpin_05.jpg)
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur_alpin_06.jpg)
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseur_alpin_07.jpg)
Thank you.
Quote from: fsn on 18 April 2015, 11:29:20 AM
I was not disparaging the fighting abilities ... just the beret.
Don't say this in front of one of these proud and elite soldier !! ;)
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 18 April 2015, 11:45:27 AM
Hi Ronan
It was only a tease, and no offence was intended.
I am fully aware that it was the Government that surrendered not the Troops or the population. Many of the British only got off the beach at Dunkirk due to the French holding the Germans back, and many of those French soldiers returned to Britain to continue the fight.
Mark
Yes, I know you knew that.. But some people ( young people ? ) are still seriously thinking this.. So I wanted to write this. Again, I'm sorry if I was a bit aggressive.
Quote from: fsn on 18 April 2015, 11:02:37 AM
I'm sorry, but that overlarge beret is very ... camp.
How can you say that after the picture you posted of me smoking a pipe >:(
Thanks for the information so far, it will help me put a mster list together for the designer for next month. :D
Looking at the pictures of the Alpine troops, baggy trousers gaiters, jacket and helmet - this would make them slightly different to troops in puttees, tunic helmet for the designer??
Dave
Would these work for WW1 as well?
Quote from: Dave on 18 April 2015, 12:17:28 PM
Thanks for the information so far, it will help me put a mster list together for the designer for next month. :D
Looking at the pictures of the Alpine troops, baggy trousers gaiters, jacket and helmet - this would make them slightly different to troops in puttees, tunic helmet for the designer??
Dave
The fortress troops used a smaller béret, and - I think - their vests were the official release.
But the chasseurs alpins wore a shorter jacket. Their trousers were also shorter, looking a bit like golf trousers.
They got some leather and sheep uniforms in Norway, different again :
(http://www.memoire-des-alpins.com/wp-content/uploads/historique-des-troupes-alpines/1939-1940-2/expedition-de-norvege/historique/Photos-campagne-de-norvege-chasseurs-sur-le-hms-york-au-retour-de-namsos.jpg)
(http://www.memoire-des-alpins.com/wp-content/uploads/historique-des-troupes-alpines/1939-1940-2/expedition-de-norvege/historique/Photos-campagne-de-norvege-sections-de-transmission-du-6e-bca.jpg)
(http://2d6.fr/photos/chasseurs_alpins/Chasseurs_alpins.png)
Quote from: Fenton on 18 April 2015, 12:18:56 PM
Would these work for WW1 as well?
I don't think so. They changed in 1920..
( but if you paint as bad as me, you could use them as proxies :P ;) )
Hello Dave et al
There's no joy in Jouineau re the Dragons portés.
You could look at the TQD 20mm figures which are really good for uniform details:-
(http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD-FR01a.jpg)
from here - http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD%20Castings%20WWII%20French%20Forces.htm (http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD%20Castings%20WWII%20French%20Forces.htm).
A good source for 1940 is this reenactors site:-
http://www.minitracks.fr/montcornet_2010.htm (http://www.minitracks.fr/montcornet_2010.htm)
(http://www.minitracks.fr/IMG_6932.JPG)
(http://www.minitracks.fr/IMG_7066.JPG)
(http://www.minitracks.fr/IMG_6999.JPG)
Here's a description from the Axis History Forum:-
- "Dragons Portés" (Portés means carried by a vehicle) is the motorized infantry classicaly in the Division Légère Mécanique (DLM) and Division Légère de Cavalerie (DLC).
Dragons Portes were professional units of better morale, though few personnel had any combat experience (senior officers were often WWI veterans though). They were the the motorized infantry in the Division Legere Mécanique (DLM) and Division Legere de Cavalerie (DLC).The firepower of the squads was high since each was armed with two LMGs. The French Dragons Portes squad was designed to cover a large ground area and as such during initial planning for these units (in the early 30's), each squad received 2 LMGs. At the beginning, all squads were equipped with 2 vehicles carrying each 1 LMG and 7 men : in fact 1 half-squad of 6 men + 1 driver. So a Dragons Portés Squad squad had 12 men (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs) and 2 vehicle. The problem was the number of vehicles. So a bigger vehicle has been designed (Laffly S20TL for the Dragons Portes) to carry the whole squad, but this time reduced to 10 men, keeping the same armament (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs). Each Laffly S20TL was equiped with two AA mounts which could possibly be fitted on each aft corner, on each side, and on the center the first row of rear seats and the rest of the hull. The devices could accomodate either a FM 24/29 or a 8 mm Hotchkiss MG. However for combat, both LMGs were supposed to be used by the squad (only during transport would the LMGs be used in an AA role. (RDP = regiment de Dragons Portes).
Laffly S20TL = softskin vehicle also known as "VDP" for "voiture de Dragons Portés" = Dragons Portés's car. The vehicle were to be hidden quite far away from where the Dragons Portés were supposed to fight. French troops were surprised by the German Schützen + SPWs tactics which would usually dismount troops just before MG range. This also resulted in German APCs being destroyed by the French AT guns.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Quote from: GrumpyOldMan on 18 April 2015, 11:16:09 PM
Hello Dave et al
There's no joy in Jouineau re the Dragons portés.
You could look at the TQD 20mm figures which are really good for uniform details:-
(http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD-FR01a.jpg)
from here - http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD%20Castings%20WWII%20French%20Forces.htm (http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD%20Castings%20WWII%20French%20Forces.htm).
A good source for 1940 is this reenactors site:-
http://www.minitracks.fr/montcornet_2010.htm (http://www.minitracks.fr/montcornet_2010.htm)
(http://www.minitracks.fr/IMG_6932.JPG)
(http://www.minitracks.fr/IMG_7066.JPG)
(http://www.minitracks.fr/IMG_6999.JPG)
Here's a description from the Axis History Forum:-
- "Dragons Portés" (Portés means carried by a vehicle) is the motorized infantry classicaly in the Division Légère Mécanique (DLM) and Division Légère de Cavalerie (DLC).
Dragons Portes were professional units of better morale, though few personnel had any combat experience (senior officers were often WWI veterans though). They were the the motorized infantry in the Division Legere Mécanique (DLM) and Division Legere de Cavalerie (DLC).The firepower of the squads was high since each was armed with two LMGs. The French Dragons Portes squad was designed to cover a large ground area and as such during initial planning for these units (in the early 30's), each squad received 2 LMGs. At the beginning, all squads were equipped with 2 vehicles carrying each 1 LMG and 7 men : in fact 1 half-squad of 6 men + 1 driver. So a Dragons Portés Squad squad had 12 men (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs) and 2 vehicle. The problem was the number of vehicles. So a bigger vehicle has been designed (Laffly S20TL for the Dragons Portes) to carry the whole squad, but this time reduced to 10 men, keeping the same armament (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs). Each Laffly S20TL was equiped with two AA mounts which could possibly be fitted on each aft corner, on each side, and on the center the first row of rear seats and the rest of the hull. The devices could accomodate either a FM 24/29 or a 8 mm Hotchkiss MG. However for combat, both LMGs were supposed to be used by the squad (only during transport would the LMGs be used in an AA role. (RDP = regiment de Dragons Portes).
Laffly S20TL = softskin vehicle also known as "VDP" for "voiture de Dragons Portés" = Dragons Portés's car. The vehicle were to be hidden quite far away from where the Dragons Portés were supposed to fight. French troops were surprised by the German Schützen + SPWs tactics which would usually dismount troops just before MG range. This also resulted in German APCs being destroyed by the French AT guns.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Cheers
Thanks for the pics ;), I think the infantry are going to quadruple in size, I have alot to put a package together for the designer.
Dave
Be careful with having too much of the wrong variety of French uniforms:
1. Contrary to what a lot of figure manufacturers think, the Dragons Portés motorised infantry did not wear the motorised troop helmet, they wore the Adrian 1926. I was one of the people who mistakenly said so to Peter Pig a long, long time ago on the basis of what a very serious collector had told me at the time. In fact, the motorised troop helmet (along with the Tenue de toile Mle 38) was only worn by the motorcycle troops, AFV crewmen and soft-skin vehicle drivers (BTW, dismounted mortorcycle troops such as the TQD figures above are very, very useful for the reconnaissance battalions). The dragons portés (along with mounted troops) basically looked like this:
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2s96e69.jpg) or (http://i36.tinypic.com/xc1a51.jpg)
Since the summer of 1940 was very warm, figures in the short tunic (the leather jacket was for motorcycle/AFV crewmen reenactors notwithstanding) with an Adrian helmet would be very useful.
2. I'd say forget about fortress infantry and their beret: by definition these troops manned underground bunkers so there is no good reason to see them on the tabletop (unless you model them with their hands up in surrendering pose). If outside, they would wear their helmets anyway.
For instance here is the uniform of a mountain fortress infantry unit, basically no different from plain old infantry:
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2dhh08x.jpg)
3. Likewise, be wary of mountain troops and their nice large, beret as these were worn on parades and non-tactical photo ops but an Adrian helmet with or without cloth cover would be worn in combat. The main difference with normal infantry would be the Bergam rucksack rather than the sorry excuse of a backpack the rest of the infantry were saddled with. Here are some photos of Alpine troops in 1939/40:
On parade:
(http://www.memoire-des-alpins.com/wp-content/uploads/historique-des-troupes-alpines/1939-1940-2/mobilisation/bca-les-bataillons-de-chasseurs-alpins/Photos-bca-le-13e-bca.jpg)
On campaign:
(http://www.memoire-des-alpins.com/wp-content/uploads/historique-des-troupes-alpines/1939-1940-2/mobilisation/bca-les-bataillons-de-chasseurs-alpins/Photos-bca-49e-bca.jpg)
(http://www.memoire-des-alpins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cropped-bandeau1.jpg)
French mountain infantry and Foreign Legion for the Narvik campaign would be very interesting as it is pretty self contained but it would be very specific as these troops were equipped with experimental uniforms with a much more modern silhouette.
Chasseur (the rest of the article is reproduced here (http://www.militaria1940.fr/t4535-narvik-1940)):
(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/51/81/51/milita10.jpg)
Legion:
(http://www.39-45strategie.com/fileadmin/images/39-45/MAS%2036_5%20%28Narvik%29.jpg)
Above all, I would say one of the most useful figures would be one horse cavalry, just the one pose would be enough since they fought dismounted:
(http://idata.over-blog.com/1/18/21/36//Cavaliers.jpg)
Those Chasseurs in "experimental uniforms" look remarkably like US infantry!
I wouldn't fiddle about in 10mm, but in larger scales would a head swap to an Adrian on a US infantry figure work, for the not massively purist looks about right at gaming distance levels of "work"?