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Wider Wargaming => General Discussion => Topic started by: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 05:25:24 PM

Title: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 05:25:24 PM
Hi all.

What would you guys recommend for my ACW bases?

10mm PD minis using BP rules.

Thanks in advance. :)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 April 2015, 05:27:35 PM
Utterly your choice!
I went 3 x 30mm x 40mm, giving 120mm width, but also allows you to form columns. It allows at least two ranks per base, plus space for mounted command/skirmishers too.
You might want to do 4 x as then you can form squares?
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Ithoriel on 05 April 2015, 05:32:57 PM
ACW, so not many squares being formed.

Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 05:38:33 PM
Quote from: mad lemmey on 05 April 2015, 05:27:35 PM
Utterly your choice!
I went 3 x 30mm x 40mm, giving 120mm width, but also allows you to form columns. It allows at least two ranks per base, plus space for mounted command/skirmishers too.
You might want to do 4 x as then you can form squares?

Thanks.

I've read people basing on 20x20 four figs per base.  This seems ridiculously small to me.  I'll be moving the buggers all day!
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 April 2015, 05:59:01 PM
My AWI Americans are on 60x30 x 2, it works well enough.
My Brits are on 20x30, 30x40, 30x40, 20x30 so I can detach light company and grenadiers.
The 4 figure thing sounds like a hangover from Fire and Fury...
It depends what formations you want? Line is easy, attack column can be done with three bases, by going two up, one back. Columns are just one after the other,and, as our learned fiend correctly pointed out, squares really didn't happen!
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 06:00:37 PM
How do you base cavalry Will?
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 April 2015, 06:07:58 PM
Romans & Samuari, as well as AWI brits 3 x 40x30, with 4 or 5 to a base depending on 'heaviness' or 60 x 30 for AWI Anericans to show lack of flexibility!  LoA cav on 4x30x40...
Mongols not decided yet for the heavies.

I would definitely do a cavalry unit and then a dismounted unit (in loose line or skirmish, probably behind a linear obstacle ). On the same frontage as my infantry. As long as both forces have the same frontage in BP, it doesn't matter.

The uncredited victor of Gettysburg:
http://youtu.be/TglhKUX6fmQ
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 06:12:18 PM
Thanks WIll. :)

Loose line?  I think I know what you mean but... :-\

Thanks for the cavalry clip; seems to be the element of ACW which really divides people.
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Leman on 05 April 2015, 06:13:50 PM
Bit radical, but for FPW I have based 60x60 where one base counts as two, using casualty markers to show losses. Side by side = line, one behind the other = column.
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 06:16:43 PM
Hmm, that's a bit bigger than I was thinking. :-\
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 April 2015, 06:18:16 PM
Loose, as if in about 2/3 of the amount of line in the same space as a line unit.
If we are using the 20mm square base example, 4 foot vs 3 dismounted cavalry or 2 skirmishers per base.
Cavalry units tended to be smaller, and then 1 in 4 men would be a horse holder.
Union Cavalry also sometimes had repeating carbines, murderous rate of fire at short ranges.
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: petercooman on 05 April 2015, 06:51:50 PM
I did warmaster size bases, 40X20, 8 models to a base in two lines of 4, 3 bases to a unit.

Cavalry  3 models to a base, 3 bases to a unit.

Skirmishers will be 3-4 models to a base i think.

Artillery are based towards the short edge. Works good for many rulesystems.

You all have seen my picture numerous times, but i'll just post it again  :P :P :P

(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff441/petercooman123/DSC03119_zps1823c356.jpg) (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/petercooman123/media/DSC03119_zps1823c356.jpg.html)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 April 2015, 06:55:09 PM
Quote from: petercooman on 05 April 2015, 06:51:50 PM
I did warmaster size bases, 40X20, 8 models to a base in two lines of 4, 3 bases to a unit.

Cavalry  3 models to a base, 3 bases to a unit.

Skirmishers will be 3-4 models to a base i think.

Artillery are based towards the short edge. Works good for many rulesystems.

You all have seen my picture numerous times, but i'll just post it again  :P :P :P

(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff441/petercooman123/DSC03119_zps1823c356.jpg) (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/petercooman123/media/DSC03119_zps1823c356.jpg.html)

Keep posting them, they're lovely.
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 06:55:28 PM
Thanks Peter, they're cracking.

Works for me as WM is my main game. :)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: petercooman on 05 April 2015, 07:09:25 PM
It just works out pretty well too.

3 bases of 8 = 24 
-3 command figures and one casualty figure thrown in for good measure = 20

2 packs of infantry are 60 models, so that gives you enough regular troopers  for 3 units/9 bases.

Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Westmarcher on 05 April 2015, 11:19:50 PM
Maybe I've missed this but no-one seems to have pointed out that you can have large, standard, small and tiny units in Black Powder  So have a think about how many bases you are going to have per unit.

Personally (after a few re-basing episodes), I find square bases are the best (I use 25mm x 25mm - but suit yourself). I use 4 bases per standard unit. This means I can form line (4 x 1), column (2 x 2) and march column (1 x 4). Although I made some movement trays for line and march column (if you use square bases, they are the same dimensions), I hardly use them, finding that moving 4 bases per unit is no bother and does not have such a  significant effect on the speed of play as some people may think. As for the amount of figures on each base I say do whatever floats your boat.  :)  
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Womble67 on 05 April 2015, 11:26:46 PM
I normally use 24 figures 3 x 40mm x 20mm for a standard unit. Tiny unit 8 figures 1 x 40mm x 20mm. Small unit 16 figures 2 x 40mm 20mm.
for a large unit I use 8 figures 2 x 20mm x 20mm plus the standard unit.

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2015, 07:29:28 AM
Whereas I use the same frontage, but put less figures on the base! ;D
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 07:50:17 AM
Thanks guys.   I've ordered the rules so I guess I'll have to decide when I read them.

Seems to be a lot of variation though.  :-\
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2015, 08:26:21 AM
That's because the writer wanted people to use their own figures and initiative...
Honest...
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 08:31:03 AM
Quote from: mad lemmey on 06 April 2015, 08:26:21 AM
That's because the writer wanted people to use their own figures and initiative...
Honest...

;D

I'm okay with the principle but as I'm new to the period it makes things a little tricky.

I also want to avoid rebasing if possible.  :-\
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2015, 08:38:59 AM
That's why we've all had to agree base sizes with clubmates first, and why I've ended up with many pairs of armies!
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Westmarcher on 06 April 2015, 09:22:09 AM
Quote from: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 07:50:17 AM
I've ordered the rules so I guess I'll have to decide when I read them.

Excellent plan.

Quote from: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 08:31:03 AM
I also want to avoid rebasing if possible.

I used to have oblong bases but found them unsatisfactory for march column, small and tiny units ......
My advice is go for square. Covers all formations. In my experience, I find that moving 4 square base units are just as quick as moving 3 oblong base units on the table top because fingers can grasp 2 bases at a time.
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 10:16:38 AM
Ta  ;)

What do the rules actually say about basing?
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Rob on 06 April 2015, 10:37:45 AM
Quote from: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 10:16:38 AM
Ta  ;)

What do the rules actually say about basing?
BP recommends 40 by 40 with 4 infantry models 2 deep, and for cavalry 50 by 50 for 2 models. They do state though that they use other sizes as well and it makes no difference to the rules.

Gareth, I do not have the answer only you can decide, but here are some things to consider:

You are currently planning to use 10mm models with a set of rules designed for 28 or 15mm models.

This means a number of decisions:
Do you use the rules as they stand and use more figures to a base for that massed unit look, but use the 28/15 distances and ranges as they stand? Lots of painting.

Do you use the same amount of figures to a base but play on a smaller area, possibly halving the 28/15 distances and ranges? Only worh it if you really are restricted with table space.

Do you go for the same size tables but halving the 28/15 distances and ranges, to allow up to double the number of units and a bigger battle? This option can often make the chosen rules become very tedious as you will be doing roughly twice the amount of processing for each turn compared to the size of game the rules were designed for.

Cheers, Rob  :)






Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2015, 10:39:25 AM
Give me a minute
*rustling of books*

AVALANCHE!

Got an email?
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Fenton on 06 April 2015, 10:46:19 AM
I think people using 6mm go for 60x30 basing
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2015, 10:51:50 AM
Oh, we also tend to use 1cm = 1" in 10mm, it helps a huge amount!
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 11:10:08 AM
Hmm, still no clue.  :-\

Might decide to go with what looks good.

Thanks gents.
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2015, 11:13:33 AM
Gareth,
Email me at madlemmey at hotmail dot com
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Last Hussar on 06 April 2015, 11:29:52 AM
Quote from: getagrip on 05 April 2015, 05:38:33 PM
Thanks.

I've read people basing on 20x20 four figs per base.  This seems ridiculously small to me.  I'll be moving the buggers all day!

My WSS are 6 on a 20mm base >:(

If you are playing cm for inches 4x 30mm will be fine , and it makes it compatable with other rule sets. PP use 30m, F&F 28mm, TCHAE an inch but works fine with 30mm
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 11:37:37 AM
Quote from: mad lemmey on 06 April 2015, 11:13:33 AM
Gareth,
Email me at madlemmey at hotmail dot com

Okey dokey  ;)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2015, 01:21:52 PM
Ta
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 06 April 2015, 02:46:23 PM
Quote from: mad lemmey on 06 April 2015, 01:21:52 PM
Ta

Thanks for the scans Will. :-bd
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Bunny on 07 April 2015, 12:54:57 PM
Getagrip,

10mm ACW works really well in Black Powder, for distances we just use CMs instead of inches.

Base size is irrelevant in BP as long as the frontage is the same.  For my ACW, SYW and AWI I use 30x30 with 2 ranks of 4 figures, 3 bases to a standard unit, so 24 figures.  For my League of Augsburg I have gone with DBM(R) basing so I can use the armies under those rules as well, this does however cause very large units with lots of figures, 56 per regiment.

Enjoy the rules, they are great fun! lol

Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 07 April 2015, 01:38:39 PM
Quote from: Bunny on 07 April 2015, 12:54:57 PM
Getagrip,

10mm ACW works really well in Black Powder, for distances we just use CMs instead of inches.

Base size is irrelevant in BP as long as the frontage is the same.  For my ACW, SYW and AWI I use 30x30 with 2 ranks of 4 figures, 3 bases to a standard unit, so 24 figures.  For my League of Augsburg I have gone with DBM(R) basing so I can use the armies under those rules as well, this does however cause very large units with lots of figures, 56 per regiment.

Enjoy the rules, they are great fun! lol



Thanks Bunny,

I've ordered BP and am eagerly awaiting my minis.  I agree with using cm instead of inches but that does make some of the ranges seem rather small.  :-\

I've also been sent an ACW supplement,  which is superb!

My thanks to everyone for all the help and guidance.  :)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: Westmarcher on 07 April 2015, 04:18:00 PM
Quote from: getagrip on 07 April 2015, 01:38:39 PM
I agree with using cm instead of inches but that does make some of the ranges seem rather small.  :-\

Agree. I find cm at the short ranges, and on the ruler/measuring tape, just a tad too small for my liking so I use my own 2/3rds and half scale Quick Reference Sheets (in inches) for my 10mm and 15mm games. Many BP gamers do (in fact I got the idea from the Warlord Games BP forum). As you will find, BP ranges and movement rates are easily adaptable for 2/3rd and half scale measurements. Having the 3 scale options (full, 2/3rd and 1/2) plus the cm option, is useful for all sorts of situations (e.g., scenario specifics, size of table, minis, small or large battles).
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: toxicpixie on 07 April 2015, 05:18:44 PM
We play Pike & Shotte in cm's and it works nicely - units are based 60mm by 30mm for Marlbuians. Although we're moving to Maurice which means using two units side by side or (as I've done with new troops) two 30mm half bases, one for either side :)

Gareth, if and when you're sorted if you still want a bash on a Wed evening PM me and I'll sort a table and make sure I'm not occupied with family emergencies ;)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 07 April 2015, 09:00:26 PM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 07 April 2015, 05:18:44 PM
We play Pike & Shotte in cm's and it works nicely - units are based 60mm by 30mm for Marlbuians. Although we're moving to Maurice which means using two units side by side or (as I've done with new troops) two 30mm half bases, one for either side :)

Gareth, if and when you're sorted if you still want a bash on a Wed evening PM me and I'll sort a table and make sure I'm not occupied with family emergencies ;)

Thanks Nathan.  I'm definitely going to take you up on that.

I may have some ACW painted up by then.  :)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: toxicpixie on 07 April 2015, 09:18:31 PM
If you don't I can sub in 2mm Austro-Prussians, they're only a year out. And 3500miles...

You'll have to have read the rules though, if they're significantly different to Pike & Shotte :D

Otherwise can give Mitt Blud & Eisen a bash, it's good for Crimea this far :)
Title: Re: ACW basing for black powder.
Post by: getagrip on 07 April 2015, 10:06:29 PM
Cheers Nathan,  I'll be in touch.  :)