I´ve looking at some pics of Pendraken march attack infantry pose in SYW range. They look nice, but there appears to me something odd: The infantrymen are holding their muskets on their right shoulder and in other sources I´ve checked they always hold the muskets on their left shoulder.
Can anybody shed some light on it?
Your comments will be much appreciated.
Ash.
I can't.
Just had a look at the figures and yes the PD ones do have the musket on the right shoulder in the 'march attack' pose. So did a quick check of images on Google and it seems paintings show the troops with the musket on the left shoulder, although Falcon Games do a march attack figure with it on the right shoulder as well! :-\
Hmmmmmm.
I don't know of any manuals that states whether the musket should be on the left or right shoulder. However, given that it would be quicker to both bring the musket to the firing position from the right shoulder rather than the left and also that with bayonet fixed it would be quicker to bring the musket and bayonet down into the attack pose then there seems nothing wrong with the muskets being on the right shoulder. Whether this is correct or not though I do not know.
Look forward to reading other comments.
Drill positions as per 1750 Reglement;
http://kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Prussian_Line_Infantry_Drill
Just read through the instructions and when 'marching' is covered, and it states on the 'left shoulder'.
Quote from: clibinarium on 04 April 2015, 12:42:47 PM
Drill positions as per 1750 Reglement;
http://kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Prussian_Line_Infantry_Drill
However, just being picky here but instruction #15 is clearly at varience with the figure as it says the following:
"15. Schlagt an (Aim): the soldier forces down his musket, bracing the butt against where his right shoulder meets the arm, and sliding his left hand forward so that his hand now grips the swell of the musket – behind the last ramrod pipette. At the same time, he takes a slight step back with his right leg, so as to be about a foot or so from the front foot,
with the right leg remaining straight, and the left leg being slightly flexed. The soldier at this point was to brace his musket firmly, with the stock braced against his cheek, looking down the barrel to aim. The soldier was to aim at the knee of an enemy soldier at about four paces."
but the picture clearly shows that the left leg is kept straight and the right leg slightly flexed.
(http://kronoskaf.com/syw/images/c/cc/Prussian_Infantry_Drill_Aim_5.jpg)
Although this is only a very minor point it does bring some doubt about the 'authority', though I would suggest unless some other text is available we have to bow to this one.
Good point. Always question.
The description in this case sounds right (not the picture). That's the way I was taught to fire a shotgun when clay-pigeon shooting (to absorb the recoil).
Personally not very concerned about the SYW infantry 'march attack' pose. It not only looks as if they are marching but (in my mind) can also be construed as being about to level muskets for firing.
well I've long held doubts about that drawing; it looks to me that too much of the butt of the musket is above the arm to be secure. It looks like the musket will potentially fly backwards over the arm when fired.
The downward angle of the musket really looks odd, that's not to say its wrong; it just looks "off".
"The soldier was to aim at the knee of an enemy soldier at about four paces."
4 paces, bloody hell, talk about "wait until you see the whites of their eyes", you could just about get the cl*p from them at that range.
Thanks for your comments. Still, the question on the marching infantry remains. It appears that musket on the left shoulder might be the right pose. I do not claim to be an expert here, so there may be other sources suporting the infantry marching with arm on the right shoulder, as in the Pendraken figure range.
Any input on this will be wellcome.
Regards from Spain
Ash
Quote from: GordonY on 04 April 2015, 02:59:29 PM
"The soldier was to aim at the knee of an enemy soldier at about four paces."
4 paces, bloody hell, talk about "wait until you see the whites of their eyes", you could just about get the cl*p from them at that range.
The other point is that the Prussians advanced with fixed bayonets, by the 1750's the socket bayonet had been intorduced to replace the plug bayonet, thereby allowing the advancing soldiers to halt, fire once (presuming they had loaded previously), and then continue to advance towards the enemy. Although not stated I think this is the manouver being referred to above, i.e. the march advance would halt a few paces from contact with the enemy and then fire into them before recommencing their advance.
However, this 'interpretation' raises a problem. At a range of only 4 paces (circa. 3 metres or 10 feet) this would seem to invite a surge from the defending enemy ranks whilst this manouver was being carried out, a surge that would undoubtedly disrupt the Prussian line significantly and also give any impetus to the defenders rather than the Prussians. This just does not seem logical IMO. Also, with aiming so low you would have almost 50% chance of missing as the opposing soldiers were lined up shoulder to shoulder, therefor the musket is not being aimed at a solid wall of enemy flesh but at an area where there would be no target between neighbouring soldiers legs. It surely would have been practical to aim at the stomach area rather than the knees, as even with a mighty recoil it would be unlikely that over such a distance the musket ball would fly over the enemy's head.
Quote from: Westmarcher on 04 April 2015, 01:13:00 PM
Good point. Always question.
The description in this case sounds right (not the picture). That's the way I was taught to fire a shotgun when clay-pigeon shooting (to absorb the recoil).
Personally not very concerned about the SYW infantry 'march attack' pose. It not only looks as if they are marching but (in my mind) can also be construed as being about to level muskets for firing.
I agree the drawing must surely be wrong for the reason you state.
Christopher Duffy, in his The Army of Frederick the Great, states:
The musket (with its permanently fixed bayonet) was held as near perpendicular as possible, with the barrel facing to the front. The weapon was supported either by jamming the left forearm perpendicularly below the hammer, or extending the left arm at full length and letting the end of the butt rest in the fingers.
The latter would seem to be the more comfortable way to carry the weapon.
This specific question was discussed a little while back on TMP:-
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=182763
While searching for that (my memory is good enough to remember reading it, but not where I found it!) I also found this, on the reasons for the different, but similar, poses:-
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=299752
Cheers,
Jim
Theophanes
The pose you refer to was known a 'poise firelock' in C18th British drill books - if you look at the first link that JimleCat posted it should cover most of the bases. In this Kronoskaf link it is more or less the same as the final 'make ready' plate.
http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=British_Line_Infantry_Drill#Make_ready
Herstblue posted a description from Christopher Duffy's book describes 'shoulder arms' - essentially a marching or 'at attention' position. From kronoskaf - see the end figure
http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/images/5/5c/British_Infantry_Drill_Rest_0.jpg
and
http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/images/4/48/British_Infantry_Shoulder.jpg
The SYWA2 Austrian infantry marching are in effect in a 'slope arms' mode. I have not discovered this in an C18th drill book. But if you look at this extract from one of the Blenheim tapestries you can see a British soldier with a 'right slope arms' and just behind him an Austrian grenadier with 'left slope arms'. I suspect it is just a more 'on the march' thing rather than part of the manual exercise.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Blenheim_Wynendael_1708.jpg
In JimleCat's second link which seems to refer to Napoleonic French figures - as far as I can make out the pose described is 'support arms' - firelock nuzzled in the crook of the left arm sometimes supported by the right arm across the body, for example
http://img9.fold3.com/img/thumbnail/260434479/400/400/2481_1315_232_297.jpg
Having said I could not find any evidence of slope arms - there is an example in this video of 23rd RWF re-enactors going through the manual of arms here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc07YC8b1Yw&feature=PlayList&p=F93E6C1FCE59AC16&index=0