Okay, I realise this isn't going to be simple but...
I'm looking to make my own rules for ACW and I want to know the relative strengths of units (brigades / corps not sure) used at the time.
This is the level of detail I need, not sure if it's possible... :-\
What could you reasonably expect to see on an "average" ACW battle? (I realise this may be entirely the wrong place for this question :D )
Lots of infantry (I know) but what were the differences between them? (Eg 20% militia or some such unit type etc).
PLEASE don't give me loads of historical references; I'm really trying to keep it as simple as possible but with some troop variation.
Thanks in advance. :)
I hate to put a damper on things but I don't think you can write a set of rules for a period unless you understand the strategy, tactics, organisation, training, supply, etc of those involved.
Or at least, you can write a set of perfectly playable rules but they will not reflect the period.
I'd suggest picking a set of rules, playing some games, doing some reading around the subject and then either tweaking the commercial rules or writing your own.
As ever, only a personal view.
In "Wargaming in History: The American Civil War", by Paul Stevenson, Argus Books, 1990 gives ... and I feel the heavy breath of those who know on the back of my neck ... suggests Union - 80% infantry, cavalry 14%, artillery 6% and Confederates 70%, 20%, 10%. It also says that average regiments in the Union forces were 700 strong in 1861, 500 in 1862, 320 in 1863, 400 in 1864 and 4500 in 1865. Confederates 600, 450, 350, 250, 150.
In other words, it ain't that simple.
I think (and again, I'm not a great ACW buff but I would suggest that the composition of armies varied across the years and theatres. The way I approach these things is to find a battle/campaign I like and then mimic the OOB of the whole or (most interesting) part of the forces involved.
The other issue is there is no typical ACW force!
Some would have more cavalry, less zouaves, coloured units, units in wrong uniforms, lack of cavalry, heavier artillery, former army troops, militia, trained troops, raw troops, the list goes on...
Basically, infantry, infantry, infantry...
When you have got an elephant by the hind legs and he is trying to run away, its best to let him run.
- Abraham Lincoln
A lot of sense from Ithoriel and FSN, Grip. I would let go that elephant. :)
Yeah, I kind of expected this. ;)
Thanks fellas. :)
The issue I have is, I don't have a local club (and even if I did I wouldn't be able to make it regularly enough to be worthwhile) and so I have no way of testing rules.
Therefore, I have to ask for advice here which, although comprehensive and informed, is wildly different.
Which leaves me with the prospect of buying loads of rules until I find one I like.
Corollary: write my own!
Hmm... :-\
Personally I'd suggest ACWmaster, because you're familiar with the system, they're free (if you still have a copy of the Warmaster rules) and they give a decent game.
At the risk of sounding rude (not my intention), you don't know enough about the period to be irked by the things that irk me about ACWmaster! :)
Shame you're a bit further out than is practicable for a weekday evening or if suggest coming to the club here an we could give "MIT Blud & Eisen" a bash!
Quote from: Ithoriel on 31 March 2015, 07:43:33 PM
Personally I'd suggest ACWmaster, because you're familiar with the system, they're free (if you still have a copy of the Warmaster rules) and they give a decent game.
At the risk of sounding rude (not my intention), you don't know enough about the period to be irked by the things that irk me about ACWmaster! :)
Thanks Ith; agree completely, I am blundering around in the dark. ;)
Quote from: toxicpixie on 31 March 2015, 08:04:58 PM
Shame you're a bit further out than is practicable for a weekday evening or if suggest coming to the club here an we could give "MIT Blud & Eisen" a bash!
Where are you based Nathan?
North end of Birmingham, the club's about five mins off from Junction 6 of the M6...
Quote from: toxicpixie on 31 March 2015, 09:40:38 PM
North end of Birmingham, the club's about five mins off from Junction 6 of the M6...
That's do-able.
Have to pick my night obviously but, if you guys would be willing to set up an ACW, game that would be amazing! :D
Cheers Nathan. ;)
It's not my period, and would be proxies in 2mm but tbh if you ignore the base labels then 1866 Austrians and Prussians will do at a squint in 2mm :D
As a caveat I don't own a specific set of rules aside from "Mit Blud & Eisen" but can happily try them with a bit of tweaking from existing F&F Fury, or those ACWarmaster ones or kit-bash Pike & Shotte for ACW :) At least one might give you a flavour for what you're aiming to do...
"MB&E" would give a big battle overview (pushing around a big Corps either size, as each base is 600men and I can do @40 bases per side), whilst the others get a bit smaller scale in scope with each base ending up as less actual blokes.
Thanks Nathan; would love to give that a go. ;)
Quote from: getagrip on 31 March 2015, 06:56:16 PM
Yeah, I kind of expected this. ;)
Thanks fellas. :)
The issue I have is, I don't have a local club (and even if I did I wouldn't be able to make it regularly enough to be worthwhile) and so I have no way of testing rules.
Therefore, I have to ask for advice here which, although comprehensive and informed, is wildly different.
Which leaves me with the prospect of buying loads of rules until I find one I like.
Corollary: write my own!
Hmm... :-\
I would respectfully suggest that if you are determined to not learn anything about the period then when you complete you're rules, the testing will only going to be about whether you like the game, not is it is an "average" ACW battle, as you wont have the historical knowladge to analyse the results.
So what does it matter if the proprtions of this or that type are not spot on? Just go ahead and do it.
Rob :)
Quote from: Rob on 31 March 2015, 10:55:01 PM
I would respectfully suggest that if you are determined to not learn anything about the period then when you complete you're rules, the testing will only going to be about whether you like the game, not is it is an "average" ACW battle, as you wont have the historical knowladge to analyse the results.
So what does it matter if the proprtions of this or that type are not spot on? Just go ahead and do it.
Rob :)
Cheers Rob ;)
I think I'm going to start with the ACW Warmaster rules Peter posted and go from there!
The rules are for me and friends anyway so who cares. :)
Quote from: getagrip on 31 March 2015, 10:59:47 PM
Cheers Rob ;)
I think I'm going to start with the ACW Warmaster rules Peter posted and go from there!
The rules are for me and friends anyway so who cares. :)
That's the spirit "he who dares Rodney" :)
I also have a set of rules for the 19th C ready to go. When we do that Napoleonic game you will see how they work as the Nap rules use the same mechanisms.
I have some ACW books you can borrow if you want them.
As a taster to the ACW this site is good http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/cwarmy.html (http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/cwarmy.html)
Rob :)
Quote from: Rob on 31 March 2015, 11:14:31 PM
That's the spirit "he who dares Rodney" :)
And from hence forth, Gareth will be.........?
Go on......Guess !
Cheers - Phil
I dunno, Del Boy, is he Dave?
I've always called him Dave 'cos that's his name, innit right Dave?
No Trigger, you're the only one who calls me that!
Walked in to that one didn't you Trigger. ;D ;D ;D
You plonker, Rodney. ;)
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 01 April 2015, 08:09:58 AM
You plonker, Rodney. ;)
Cheers - Phil
;D ;D ;D
Thanks Matron. ;)
Quote from: Rob on 31 March 2015, 11:14:31 PM
I also have a set of rules for the 19th C ready to go. When we do that Napoleonic game you will see how they work as the Nap rules use the same mechanisms.
I have some ACW books you can borrow if you want them.
As a taster to the ACW this site is good http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/cwarmy.html (http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/cwarmy.html)
Rob :)
Brilliant, cheers Rob.
Looking forward to it. ;)
Black Powder is WM for muskets. Its better than trying to kludge muskets into WM: the shooting rules don't have drive backs, and it uses a morale system rather than reducing hits.
Cheers Hussar, anyone know where I can get a hard copy of BP?
For a cheaper copy of BP look on eBay, otherwise you can get a copy direct from WarlordGames.com
Direct from warlord, with a free figure iirc, or probably the usual suspects - Spirit, Caliver etc.
If you can get a copy of wargaming in history; the american civil war, i strongly recommend it!
I bought it too when i started my armies, and it's a big help if you want to game the period but don't know very much of it. It explains how you can represent the different units, explains the colors a bit, and the tactics on multiple levels. not many pictures, but lots of text :P
http://www.amazon.com/The-American-Civil-Wargaming-History/dp/0806973285
Thanks Nathan, didn't realise it was in print.
New to the history stuff.
And, back on topic, I've ordered two Union army packs, one pack of Zouaves and a limber team.
Thanks to all who offered advice. :)
Quote from: petercooman on 03 April 2015, 06:25:48 PM
If you can get a copy of wargaming in history; the american civil war, i strongly recommend it!
I bought it too when i started my armies, and it's a big help if you want to game the period but don't know very much of it. It explains how you can represent the different units, explains the colors a bit, and the tactics on multiple levels. not many pictures, but lots of text :P
http://www.amazon.com/The-American-Civil-Wargaming-History/dp/0806973285
Thanks Peter, I'll have a look at that when everything lands at Grip central. :)
So far as I know it is, they seem happy to promote it anyway :D Amazon and eBay are useful too, and I have a felling Waylands Forge had a copy on the shelf as well!
I rather like Fire & Fury tbh but I think it's well out of print!
Quote from: toxicpixie on 03 April 2015, 06:31:46 PM
I rather like Fire & Fury tbh but I think it's well out of print!
Regimental fire and fury still available:
http://www.fireandfury.com/store.php
I'd definitely recommend black powder. Had an awful lot of fun with them. Their supposedly bringing an ACW supplement out however I'm not sure when that will be.
Take care
Andy
Thanks Andy, I think the general consensus is BP ;)
I gather the ACW specific supplement is out "soon" but that's a wargames soon and could be Ghu alone knows when...
You can play BP as is for ACW.
Quote from: petercooman on 03 April 2015, 07:02:13 PM
Regimental fire and fury still available:
http://www.fireandfury.com/store.php
Yes, but that's not nearly as good as the original rules. which are sadly out of print.
Nothing ever simple here is it? :)
I would argue it depends what level of game is wanted. F&F was the brigade level game and, although it had a very elegant movement/morale system, it never felt quite right to me, and always looked like a not quite right regimental game. Very much a personal opinion, but I think Altar of Freedom does brigade level better.
Quote from: sunjester on 03 April 2015, 09:40:13 PM
Yes, but that's not nearly as good as the original rules. which are sadly out of print.
If anyone wants the original F&F rules, I have an almost spanking brand new copy - read but never used.
PM sent ;)
Sunjester and I were discussing this thread over a pint (and Coronation Chicken sandwich). He suggested 'They Couldn't Hit and Elephant' by the Two Fat Lardies. Now they are a good set of rules, but I wonder if they are too much for a newbie to historicals. He said it means the player wouldn't get stuck in the mind set from other rules. They are £7 pdf download only.
They are very good with the 'friction' in an ACW battle, especially as the game goes on forces become more and more brittle, and while you feel you are never going to defeat an enemy unit, because the officers keep rallying them you get to a point where the regiments are so stretched that the officer doesn't have enough command points, and there s a major collapse of 3 or 4 units.
We did change the firing resolution to simplify it, mostly to iron out anomolies where placing troops in certain combos meant you couldn't get any hits on them, and tend to use 2 men/1 base rather than 10%/25% for the modifier triggers, as its easier to do after a couple of very small shandies.
If anybody wants the modified firing, let me know.