And finally, here's a quick one which has been requested several times here on the Forum. A while ago, member barbarian had sculpted us a Goliath model (Leichter Ladungsträger Goliath (Sd.Kfz. 302/303a/303b)), so we had one of the other sculptors do us a 2-man team to go with it. The Goliaths were demolition vehicles, usually controlled by wired remote control, although I believe there were some wireless ones used as well. The wire for the control would be 650m long, giving it a considerable range. Despite producing over 7500 of them, it wasn't the most successful piece of kit, but it looks pretty cool.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8685/16701789350_994f6fa182.jpg)
There are some nice images of it in use as well, including some Americans riding around on it.
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/abndeuce/767188725_b69f826623.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kxPG6y8Qctk/Sx6bowwjUHI/AAAAAAAARLU/GVJQH3ry7E4/s1600/Goliath%2BTanker%2B(1).jpg)
Cool !
Definitely !!
Cheers - Phil
My 1944 German Engineers have been waiting for this!
Rules for the use of a Goliath? Hmmm... How fast were they ...?
To the books!
(http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/33757/1328465440_008.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvuKcmrm_RfFUaPX33Kc18b2z7juPyY7MgLq8mv_-6XKvoDxXzxQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1csDqNO8FY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1csDqNO8FY)
Dunno about you, but I'd be a long way away from where the Goliath breaks cover!
EDIT: YouTube vid embedded.
I am sure they were some of the things General Jumbo used to control
Cracking little mini :-bd
Good work all! :)
They're excellent!
I can think of a good few sci fi or AVBCW uses for those little fellows.
Whoo-hoo!!!
They could potentially have an Sdkfz 251, a StuG III or a Tiger I as "mothership." I feel some little dioramas coming on :)
BKCII has rules for them.
This little chap is about to get some stablemates!
Be doing doggy mines next, one to one with Phil's Labs.
IanS
Pendraken already do ian.
If I ever get them painted my Soviet engineers will have a stand of them and I'll use rules similar to those for the German Goliath, but with the possibility the dogs will "attack" friendly tanks if they are close by.
Quote from: Luddite on 22 March 2015, 10:59:48 AM
They're excellent!
I can think of a good few sci fi or AVBCW uses for those little fellows.
Not sure of the scale precisely but you could also use it as a Spacey Marhine tank in 3mm?
Quote from: fsn on 22 March 2015, 09:24:57 AM
My 1944 German Engineers have been waiting for this!
Rules for the use of a Goliath? Hmmm... How fast were they ...?
To the books!
(http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/33757/1328465440_008.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvuKcmrm_RfFUaPX33Kc18b2z7juPyY7MgLq8mv_-6XKvoDxXzxQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1csDqNO8FY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1csDqNO8FY)
Dunno about you, but I'd be a long way away from where the Goliath breaks cover!
Treat them as low quality guided weapoms FSN with a 500m range. I think mine clearinf was their main function but at Kursk a T34 rammed one with unfotunate results which showed its other potential uses. Not armoured though so enemy should get a chance to destroy it in "flight" so to speak.
Cheers, Rob :)
5mm armour and a small target so protection probably around the same as an M3 Half-track.
6mm top speed so speedwise they are infantry.
Useful against dragons teeth, pillboxes, fortified buildings and slow moving or unsuspecting tanks.
Expensive to build for the effect they had. Definitely a we-cannot-afford-many-more-such-successes type of weapon.
Cool - I'll have to come up with an excuse top buy some, like my German engineer units really, really need them :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 22 March 2015, 06:27:23 PM
Expensive to build for the effect they had.
This kind of sums up the whole German war effort. We should be glad that they choose to build a myriad of different stuff, rather than the allied approach of building shed loads of medium tanks.
Only 7500+ built!
http://miliblog.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/originalusaww2army/us-troops-captured-pile-of-goliath-remote-controlled-explosive-devices.jpg
Over 7,500 built and yet how many appear on the tabletop compared to the number of King Tigers (<500 produced), Jagdpanthers (just over 400 produced) or Jagdtigers (between 77 and 88 produced).
Does rather indicate the success of the poor little Goliath :)
So.....Were they basically designed to 'clear' mines as Rob said ?
Cheers - Phil
Yes. They were described as demolition vehicles.
I think of them as a Bangalore Torpedo on tracks.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 22 March 2015, 09:21:24 PM
Over 7,500 built and yet how many appear on the tabletop compared to the number of King Tigers (<500 produced), Jagdpanthers (just over 400 produced) or Jagdtigers (between 77 and 88 produced).
Does rather indicate the success of the poor little Goliath :)
Could also indicate there's a lot of gamers out there who have to have the biggest band best. :-\
Quote from: fsn on 23 March 2015, 07:56:20 AM
Yes. They were described as demolition vehicles.
I think of them as a Bangalore Torpedo on tracks.
Exactly. Not sure when first available but i first read of them at Kursk '43. They are deployed by engineer companies using StugIII vehicles. They tow a number of the Goliath's behind the Stug ready for action. The Goliath can be controlled from the Stug under armour or the engineers can dismount.
At Kursk they were deployed as Army/Corps level troops to support the armoured thrusts. It seems the Germans thought they were succesful as by '44 they were including these Stug/Goliath companies attached to the panzer regiment within favoured armoured divisions under the FKL designation. After the summer of '44 they seem to have dropped out of use although the engineers stayed, now in halftracks with a more generalised role. I presume because of the specialised attacking role of the Goliath there were less occasions where it could be used profitable after Normandy and Bagration.
Cheers, Rob :)
Quote from: Techno on 23 March 2015, 07:38:56 AM
So.....Were they basically designed to 'clear' mines as Rob said ?
Cheers - Phil
Actually, mine clearing is the only thing I haven't come across the Goliath doing. Entirely possible I've not read enough detailed accounts or that it was such a regular occurrence that no one thought to mention it in the ones I have read. Not convinced they'd be terribly effective in clearing a minefield. Breaching dragon's teeth type obstacles, cutting wire entanglements, destroying pillboxes (or at least suppressing their occupants!) and knocking out unsuspecting tanks seem more usual (and more likely to be effective) for something that is functionally a very large HE shell on tracks.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 March 2015, 01:27:10 PM
Not convinced they'd be terribly effective in clearing a minefield.
Thanks, I.
I must admit that it struck me that if you sent one of those into a minefield it would go 'bang' when it hit the first one.
Not particularly effective, surely. :-\
Your other explanations seem to be much more 'useful' in terms of the wee vehicle.
Cheers - Phil
25th June General Model was present when 2nd company of sPz Abt 505 (Tigers) practiced the breaching of Soviet minefields in co-operation with Funklenk (FKL) Company 312. Page 183, "Zitadelle" by Mark Healy.
There was another style mine clearing vehicle being used by Funklenk company 313 - the Borgward BIV. This was a small crewed vehicle which carried the HE on its sides and carried into the minefield, dropping off the charges on the way, to be remotely blown. It seems the Goliath was more efficient.
Things to remember:
1. There were two mine types A/T and A/P. A/P went bang when anything touched it but would not harm an armoured vehicle.
2. A/T went bang only when a weight of a few hundred kilos went over it and was a much larger expolsive than A/P to destroy heavy vehicle tracks and suspension. Would not go off when infantry or very light vehicles went over it.
3. A/P were used more in closed infantry terrain. A/T were used more in open tank terrain.
4. The difficulty with lifting A/T mines is engineers in the open are exposed. They can also be burried deep making explosives the best way of getting them.
5. Bangalore torpedoes are designed for A/P mines and barbed wire. I think the nearest comparison to Goliath/Borgward concept is the modern British Viper which shoots a chain of explosives across a minefield to explode a path through it.
Hope that makes more sense.
Cheers, Rob :)
Thanks, Rob.
I'll get there eventually ! ;)
So......If the Goliath trundled over an A/P mine.....The mine would go off.....But not damage the wee vehicle too badly/at all ?......And so it could then carry on and keep setting off any other mines in its path ?
If it went over an A/T......The Goliath wasn't heavy enough to set the mine off ?
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 23 March 2015, 03:23:52 PM
Thanks, Rob.
I'll get there eventually ! ;)
So......If the Goliath trundled over an A/P mine.....The mine would go off.....But not damage the wee vehicle too badly/at all ?......And so it could then carry on and keep setting off any other mines in its path ?
If it went over an A/T......The Goliath wasn't heavy enough to set the mine off ?
Cheers - Phil
Not quite. An A/P mine would almost certainly destroy it, but in the conditions of the time it would not be deployed in close terrain against A/P mines. It would only be deployed in the open terrain against A/T mines where it was difficult to deploy dismounted engineers.
I do not think it would set off an A/T mine by its weght. I am guessing but there are clues in the way the Borgward operated, i.e. dropping off a trail of charges, and the fact that the Golieth is remotely detonated.
I think what they did was to blast a safe path trough a minefield wheether they located a mine or not. Similar to the Viper theory but using tracks rather than a rocket.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHszRV5-bd4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHszRV5-bd4)
It may sound expensive but if its saves you a Tiger, Ferdinand or PzIV its gotta be a sound investment.
Cheers, Rob :)
Clink !!
That's the sound of the penny dropping, at last.
Very many thanks, Rob.
Cheers - Phil
The Goliath seems to be a single charge, detonated all at once unlike the Borgward. Anyone have any idea whether you'd need a chain of Goliaths to clear a path of any depth or would the pressure wave created by the sizeable bang do the job?
My Russians may need to practice laying mixed minefields :)
Very comprehensive explanation Rob, makes perfect sense really ;)
That info video is pretty cool, although that rushed attempt at camo'ing it didn't seem to work too well! I don't think I'd fancy standing next to it though, too much margin for error by the guy with the controller. One wrong button pushed and suddenly there's only a pair of boots left...
As I believe happened to at least one Goliath commander. In March 1945, he cunningly manouvered his Goliath into a position to attack a Soviet ammunition convoy which had got lost and stopped until its commander could get his bearings. Unfortunately on the rising ground, the German slipped and the Goliath ran over his hand, breaking his wrist. Undeterred, he wrapped his wrist in his coat and continued on. The Goliath wasn't too responsive to his one handed controls and he was run over by the beast, inflicting a nasty gash on the leg. Still, determined, the Feldwebel limped on, until he had the convoy in sight and in range. Too close really. He sent his escorts away and gave them time to escape.
What happened next is a bit of a mystery. The escorts saw the man stand, and then jib about before a massive explosion scattered bits of him over a wide area. The thought is that he had got something caught in the guidance wire and in his efforts to free himself, unwittingly pressed the detonate.
His name? Feldwebel Fil Tekkno.
;D =D>
And who fell for that....Hook, line and sinker. :-[
You know what you are, Nobby ! ;) ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 24 March 2015, 12:24:29 PM
And who fell for that....Hook, line and sinker. :-[
You know what you are, Nobby ! ;) ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
Backbone of the internet.
;D ;D ;D
They'd never let him near one if he was in the forces.
He'd be peeling spuds, with a blunt spoon!
Leave it out !
I could easily scoop an eye out with a blunt spoon.
Don't you know nuffin'. ;)
Cheers - Phil
No - i dont know nofuuink.
IanS
Quote from: getagrip on 24 March 2015, 02:16:33 PM
He'd be peeling spuds, with a blunt spoon!
*Vision of squaddies eating chips sculpted into Swiss Guard halbardiers*
Quote from: Techno on 24 March 2015, 04:30:43 PM
Leave it out !
I could easily scoop an eye out with a blunt spoon.
Don't you know nuffin'. ;)
Cheers - Phil
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: fsn on 24 March 2015, 05:48:07 PM
*Vision of squaddies eating chips sculpted into Swiss Guard halbardiers*
Don't sculpt 'em laddie, peel 'em! :D