Hi all.
I'm looking at getting into a simple, easy to pick up, quick to play, WW2 skirmish game:
1. Is FOW easy to learn;
2. Is it 10mm;
3. Could I use PD minis?
Cheers,
Grip ;)
Bolt Action is FAR superior.
Yes, no (but could easily be so), yes!
Basic rules are very simple, then add layers of cheese.
Simple easy to play WW2 skirmish rules? I'd go with TFL's Chain of Command every time. I've been using 15mm figures, because the few people I might play against were, but I see no reason why you couldn't use 10mm figures.
My only problem with it is that people use the acronym CoC for it and I wonder why they're talking about Call of Cthulu! =)
I believe Chain of Command is the way to go theses days. FOW is Warhammer for WWII.
Thanks for the thoughts guy: really helpful.
Quote from: Leman on 07 February 2015, 10:32:46 PM
I believe Chain of Command is the way to go theses days. FOW is Warhammer for WWII.
Weirdly, WW2 Warhammer maybe what I'm looking for: nothing too heavy or too clever :-\
Would not describe FoW as a skirmish game. Figures are based as teams and each force is a heavily reinforced company. 10mm would easily work for the game and it probably wouldn't look as ridiculous as it often does in 15mm. Chain of Command works as a skirmish game platoon per side and a vehicle or two. If you want more tanks Battlegroup may be worth a look.
Quote from: getagrip on 07 February 2015, 10:05:15 PM
Why?
Its a skirmish game for a start. Its also better written and plays a much superior game. FOW is indeed popularly referred to as World War II-hammer, but actually in my view its not. It plays significantly differently. For me its an overly complex company-based game that is unbalanced, and not terribly fun.
That said, it is a popular game so maybe i've missed something!?
Bolt Action plays much closer to 40k i think, although without the grimdark bonkers-ness, 'big model' syndrome, unbalanced play etc (although flamethrowers are insane!). I've generally enjoyed BA but haven't played a game of FOW that i found fun. And at 10mm, using 1:1 figures you could get a Bolt Action force together at a very reasonable price. :)
After the three hammerings I took yesterday, not sure I want to keep playing mind!
My problem with FOW is there is no consideration for Command and they stretch there formet to include divisional support to a game at the company level. (and I don't like the rules too)
Can't talk about BA but if you stay away from Tigers and IS2, it seems a valid skirmish casual set.
Let me suggest Blitzkrieg commander,
It is warmaster in the WWII. As you know WM mechanics you could start playing reading Blitzkrieg in a morning.
Bolt Action - sold it after 1 game. Cant use tactics - pro german. FOW - some odd mechanisms, and some factual errors, despite prompts from a modest expert ;), but playable if you leave out some of the heavier vehicles, and role play aspects like "Heroes" and "Tiger" dice. Yes you can play in 10mm. Gave a friend a game - he reckoned 6mm would be better. You might also look at CoC.
IanS
My personal opinion:
Skirmish level - Chain of Command by Too Fat lardies
Company level - I Ain't Been Shot Mum 3 also by TFL
For anything larger use Blitzkrieg Commander 2
Skirmish - Flying Lead by Ganeshaq Games
Company - sorry dont do that
Battalion to Division - BKC2
FoW is just rediculous, seen way too many games with a platroon of tanks running bogie to bogie, why? Because the rules reward unhistoric play, as mentioned above its just Warhammmer 2K. Get onto ebay and buy a copy of BKC2, then ask that nice Mr Leon for 2 army packs that match Early Desert War is a hoot, with tanks clad in tinfoil armout and armed with popguns. Plus being desert the terrain is dead wasy.
Quote from: GordonY on 08 February 2015, 09:42:06 AM
Skirmish - Flying Lead by Ganeshaq Games
Company - sorry dont do that
Battalion to Division - BKC2
FoW is just rediculous, seen way too many games with a platroon of tanks running bogie to bogie, why? Because the rules reward unhistoric play, as mentioned above its just Warhammmer 2K. Get onto ebay and buy a copy of BKC2, then ask that nice Mr Leon for 2 army packs that match Early Desert War is a hoot, with tanks clad in tinfoil armout and armed with popguns. Plus being desert the terrain is dead wasy.
Quote from: jchaos79 on 08 February 2015, 08:24:09 AM
Let me suggest Blitzkrieg commander,
It is warmaster in the WWII. As you know WM mechanics you could start playing reading Blitzkrieg in a morning.
Think we have a winner here gents; thanks for all the ideas. Problem with this is it's so subjective and based in personal preference :)
Chaos's comment is the money shot; if it's like WM then that works for me!
Here we go then, next question.
I want two realistic German / Russian armies (a la Stalingrad) which would play in about 2-3 hours.
Any thoughts (Leon, get the burners ready ;) )
If you can stilll find it then Crossfire by Arty Conliffe is a great little game. the armour rules are a little weird but the game plays well. Not sure how well it would work playing solo though
A quick mention of FoW. For what is described as a quick WW2 game. I think it is perhaps one of the most over complicated sets of WW2 rules I have ever played with all its add ons and special rules. Seems to take far longer to play than it should
Quote from: Fenton on 08 February 2015, 09:48:54 AM
If you can stilll find it then Crossfire by Arty Conliffe is a great little game. the armour rules are a little weird but the game plays well. Not sure how well it would work playing solo though
A quick mention of FoW. For what is described as a quick WW2 game. I think it is perhaps one of the most over complicated sets of WW2 rules I have ever played with all its add ons and special rules. Seems to take far longer to play than it should
Cheers Steve, FoW has been shelved; BK2 it is (which you have recommended to me previously. ;)
Gareth
If your buying BKC on ebay make sure you get the 2nd edition. It doesnt say on the front cover that it is 2nd edition but it will be grey rather than green
Better yet get it via the web site and Lulu....
IanS
Quote from: Fenton on 08 February 2015, 09:52:07 AM
Gareth
If your buying BKC on ebay make sure you get the 2nd edition. It doesnt say on the front cover that it is 2nd edition but it will be grey rather than green
Quote from: ianrs54 on 08 February 2015, 09:57:30 AM
Better yet get it via the web site and Lulu....
IanS
Nothing doing on Evilbay; £12 via download it is ;)
Come on fellas; Stalingrad army lists please B)
I was lucky enough to get a brand new copy of it from a member of this forum for 3 chocolate and raisin Yorkie bars. He only wanted two but I was feeling generous
Join the BKC forum Gareth. You will see all the same people who are on this forum as well. Probably army lists or TOE's listed on it for Stalingrad
Quote from: Fenton on 08 February 2015, 10:04:39 AM
I was lucky enough to get a brand new copy of it from a member of this forum for 3 chocolate and raisin Yorkie bars. He only wanted two but I was feeling generous
Join the BKC forum Gareth. You will see all the same people who are on this forum as well. Probably army lists or TOE's listed on it for Stalingrad
Cheers Steve ;)
Anyone want to sell a copy? :)
Quote from: getagrip on 08 February 2015, 10:30:12 AM
Cheers Steve ;)
Anyone want to sell a copy? :)
I have a lovely copy with a nice green cover if you want to buy it ;)
For Lists
go here http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/
drop Pete a note telling him youve bought the rules, this will give you basic access to here http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Battlegroups/System.aspx
bung in Jerries or Ruskis set the date of your battle and you can then select from the kit available at that time (with restrictions)
Quote from: Fenton on 08 February 2015, 10:43:00 AM
I have a lovely copy with a nice green cover if you want to buy it ;)
Thanks Steve I'll pass; someone told me the grey cover is better :D
Quote from: GordonY on 08 February 2015, 10:57:58 AM
For Lists
go here http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/
drop Pete a note telling him youve bought the rules, this will give you basic access to here http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Battlegroups/System.aspx
bung in Jerries or Ruskis set the date of your battle and you can then select from the kit available at that time (with restrictions)
Thanks Gordon; I'm having trouble registering at the mo. Once I'm up and running I'll give it a go ;)
Great help!
Suggest you try a few, Getagrip. FOW is not, strictly speaking, a skirmish game. It's more a company level game with additions. It's not perfect (what set of rules is?) but it's reasonably easy to pick up. If you played it a few times you'd probably find yourself tinkering with the detail - the command and control mechanisms are rudimentary - and the "warrior" sections are aimed squarely at the 40K convert. We ignore them.
You pays your money and you takes your choice. :)
Quote from: Hertsblue on 08 February 2015, 11:05:36 AM
You pays your money and you takes your choice. :)
Nail on the head there Herts ;)
The main attraction for me is (I'm told) it's really similar to Warmaster. I don't want to spend ages learning a new system, this is going to be a sideshow for the main (fantasy) event :)
Quote from: getagrip on 08 February 2015, 10:58:20 AM
Thanks Steve I'll pass; someone told me the grey cover is better :D
But its a first edition!....Its signed and everthing
Quote from: Fenton on 08 February 2015, 11:18:08 AM
But its a first edition!....Its signed and everthing
;D
Bought the PDF now ;)
What scale minis do you use Steve?
Quote from: getagrip on 08 February 2015, 11:21:38 AM
;D
Bought the PDF now ;)
What scale minis do you use Steve?
3 6 and 10
Though I havent played for a few years now
Quote from: getagrip on 07 February 2015, 10:46:19 PM
Weirdly, WW2 Warhammer maybe what I'm looking for: nothing too heavy or too clever :-\
Then you might want to look at Warhammer Panzer Battles: http://wpbww2.tripod.com/files.html (http://wpbww2.tripod.com/files.html).
Free, designed for 3rd edition 40k, and I believe* that this is what Flames Of War grew out of.
Cheers, Martyn
* Quite happy for someone to correct me if I'm wrong
Quote from: Raider4 on 08 February 2015, 11:56:33 AM
Then you might want to look at Warhammer Panzer Battles: http://wpbww2.tripod.com/files.html (http://wpbww2.tripod.com/files.html).
Free, designed for 3rd edition 40k, and I believe* that this is what Flames Of War grew out of.
Cheers, Martyn
* Quite happy for someone to correct me if I'm wrong
Thanks Martin: going to go with BKC but if I don't like it then WPB might be next. ;)
Quote from: Fenton on 08 February 2015, 11:22:50 AM
3 6 and 10
Though I havent played for a few years now
6mm might be a go: anyone know a supplier where I can get vehicles and infantry together? The army lists are a little overwhelming :o
BKC has hit points that regenerate at the end of each turn. It is almost impossible to destroy a unit that without concentrating fire on it from a number of different units simultaneously. If you don't destroy it in one turn, then it is back at full strength the following turn.
Heroics and Ros - as nice as the Pendraken Crew. Does a pretty comprehensive range.
IanS
Quote from: Last Hussar on 08 February 2015, 12:11:45 PM
BKC has hit points that regenerate at the end of each turn. It is almost impossible to destroy a unit that without concentrating fire on it from a number of different units simultaneously. If you don't destroy it in one turn, then it is back at full strength the following turn.
Yeah, I'm kinda used to that with Warmaster ;) Not perfect of realistic but nice and simple.
I just can't wrap my head around the size of the army lists :o
Yeah Pete should really have released them as a series of codexes (?) he'd have made a shedload more money that way. Oh thats right GW and FoW did that and probably alienated most of the real historical wargaming community.
Quote from: GordonY on 08 February 2015, 12:19:04 PM
Yeah Pete should really have released them as a series of codexes (?) he'd have made a shedload more money that way. Oh thats right GW and FoW did that and probably alienated most of the real historical wargaming community.
;D
Beautifully put. There's nothing wrong with them but I'm used to selecting from about 10 choices. I now see why there's so much discussion around forces on here! What I don't want is
a) Create two uber armies;
b) Spend 6 months researching realistic unit deployment.
I also want a good ratio of infantry to vehicles.
We have never used the army lists Gareth. We have just used real life TOE's and scenarios with each battalion having its own HQ that can issues orders only to that battalion with the overall commander being able to order anyone. We run each stand is a platoon
As for hit removal or house rules is that at the end of each turn . An elite unit can remove 3 hits a regular 2 and a green one unless there in cover where they can remove an extra one
Quote from: getagrip on 08 February 2015, 12:14:36 PM
Yeah, I'm kinda used to that with Warmaster ;) Not perfect of realistic but nice and simple.
I just can't wrap my head around the size of the army lists :o
Warmaster units take ongoing damage - its relatively easy to lose a stand. Additionally these are large units of men
BKC claims that you can use 1 model=1 tank. Even 1 model = 1 platoon its silly.
What BKC could easily be is a good set of 1 stand = 1 company rules, which, as far as I'm aware, is a gap in the market. It needs a few tweaks to do so, but otherwise it would be great for representing divisional level battles - SH claims to do that, but the 1 stand = platoon means too much is on the table to get the game moving.
Quote from: Fenton on 08 February 2015, 12:24:04 PM
We have never used the army lists Gareth. We have just used real life TOE's and scenarios with each battalion having its own HQ that can issues orders only to that battalion with the overall commander being able to order anyone. We run each stand is a platoon
As for hit removal or house rules is that at the end of each turn . An elite unit can remove 3 hits a regular 2 and a green one unless there in cover where they can remove an extra one
Consider that idea well and truly stolen Steve ;)
How do I create a realistic army then?
Quote from: getagrip on 08 February 2015, 12:48:48 PM
Consider that idea well and truly stolen Steve ;)
How do I create a realistic army then?
Not my idea ...Nicked it from the BKC forum myself
A good start would be a battalion of infantry (9 stands) some transport, company of tanks (3), some arty/mortars/rocket launchers, some command for each side then try running them out against each other.
Quote from: GordonY on 08 February 2015, 12:53:34 PM
A good start would be a battalion of infantry (9 stands) some transport, company of tanks (3), some arty/mortars/rocket launchers, some command for each side then try running them out against each other.
Thanks Gordon; I'll start there ;)
BKC certainly has quirks, but then what rules don't!?
As long as you accept them, and as Hussar says 'concentrate your fire', they're a decent enough game.
The lists are daunting though, especially all the different vehicle choices. We actually found that doing historical actions and using the orders of battle from those is a good way of getting through the morass of choices.
Quote from: Luddite on 08 February 2015, 04:44:13 PM
BKC certainly has quirks, but then what rules don't!?
As long as you accept them, and as Hussar says 'concentrate your fire', they're a decent enough game.
The lists are daunting though, especially all the different vehicle choices. We actually found that doing historical actions and using the orders of battle from those is a good way of getting through the morass of choices.
That's great advice Laddie; thanks.
Anyone got OOB suggestions for Stalingrad based games?
Lot of infantry.
Off table Artillery.
Few tanks.
You should be good.
Anyone play Flames of War? Yes - the sad and desperate!
Yes over a hundred of us playing it this weekend! :)
I had two cracking games of it today!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 08 February 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Yes over a hundred of us playing it this weekend! :)
I had two cracking games of it today!
A little different to your earlier post ;)
Yesterday was pants, today was two cracking games(, one vs an old friend who always has me in fits, the other against a relative newcomer who although he loSt fought a great game and had a sense of humour!
One armoured car of mine took on, and beat, 3 armoured platoons! Okay, 12 shots from shermans missing didn't help my opponent either!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 08 February 2015, 08:06:55 PM
Yesterday was pants, today was two cracking games(, one vs an old friend who always has me in fits, the other against a relative newcomer who although he loSt fought a great game and had a sense of humour!
One armoured car of mine took on, and beat, 3 armoured platoons! Okay, 12 shots from shermans missing didn't help my opponent either!
Sense of humour goes a long way ;)
Promote the armoured car gunner!
When I started playing BKC2 I just bought an army pack from Pendraken based that up to ensure I had the 9 infantry stands, with the extras kept back to flesh out the likes of mortars and hmgs, command stands etc.
If you stick to the army packs then just use what you can make up from the BKC army lists.
The other option is to check out something like http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/index.htm and make up your forces based on those, someone has done most of the hard work already.
Memoir 44 is a useful option as it arrives ready to go, with the scenarios and everything you need. The basic set is June 1944 on the Beaches but there is a Russian extension. A game rarely takes more than an hour.
I played it a lot while abroad and without access to my stuff in the UK. When Flames of War came out I bought it, tried it, got frustrated and gave it away.
These days I prefer Heroes of Normandie to Memoir '44 but it's a squad based skirmish game, so different in style and scale.
I use BKC2 for battalion/ brigade sized actions and CoC for skirmish when using figures.