Hi all,
I know there is a Beastman army available in the "trial rules" but I don't really like them.
So...decided to do my own.
I wanted a horde feel of pure aggression.
The list is VERY infantry heavy but tough. Only a few light cavalry so wouldn't really recommend this list for tournament style games.
Let me know what you think. :)
Looks interesting....will have to chuck some dice at it & see how it plays :)
Thanks for posting 8)
Quote from: nikharwood on 02 February 2015, 03:00:39 PM
Looks interesting....will have to chuck some dice at it & see how it plays :)
Cheers Nik; would love to know how that goes. :)
What do you think of the Doombull special rule? Included it to give some punch and add a bit of colour.
As Nik says, really needs played to see how it works but first impressions are:
- For consistency with other armies I'd make chariots 5+ save
- I'd keep Beastmen to the standard 4 units per brigade
- The Doombull breaks the basic armylist conventions to no great advantage that I can see. Either field him as a standard hero or turn him into a unit upgrade like a mount or a magic item.
Overall it looks like a good, solid armylist. Have fun!
Quote from: Ithoriel on 02 February 2015, 03:25:46 PM
- For consistency with other armies I'd make chariots 5+ save
- I'd keep Beastmen to the standard 4 units per brigade
- The Doombull breaks the basic armylist conventions to no great advantage that I can see. Either field him as a standard hero or turn him into a unit upgrade like a mount or a magic item.
Overall it looks like a good, solid armylist. Have fun!
Thanks Ithoriel: :)
Goblin chariots save at 6+ and I wanted aggression over armour.
Wanted the beastmen in more of a horde but not quite as large as Skaven.
The Doombull creates a horde that punches above it's weight but is vulnerable.
Will see how it plays ;)
It's your armylist so don't let me influence you unduly, informed suggestions at best.
On the chariots, my thinking was that goblin chariots are basically kid's go-carts, crewed by weedy goblins and pulled by a couple of scruffy Alsatians whereas Beastman chariots are solid lumps of wood crewed by hulking monsters you wouldn't want to meet on a dark night pulled by beasts that will knock you down and tap dance on your chest. :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 02 February 2015, 03:48:06 PM
It's your armylist so don't let me influence you unduly, informed suggestions at best.
On the chariots, my thinking was that goblin chariots are basically kid's go-carts, crewed by weedy goblins and pulled by a couple of scruffy Alsatians whereas Beastman chariots are solid lumps of wood crewed by hulking monsters you wouldn't want to meet on a dark night pulled by beasts that will knock you down and tap dance on your chest. :)
;D Beautifully put. :)
I wanted them to have Att 4+ but with that level of attack 5+ save made them into Centurions!
Looks really interesting. Maybe in my perosnal taste I would drop trolls and ogres for this army style.
I see the 6units brigade like the special of the army. But any drawback?
You know the armies use to have a characteristic improvement and a drawback that compensate.
Anyway seems very dangerous and interesting indeed list. Thanks for sharing
Quote from: jchaos79 on 02 February 2015, 07:10:22 PM
I see the 6units brigade like the special of the army. But any drawback?
You know the armies use to have a characteristic improvement and a drawback that compensate.
Thanks Chaos :)
I think the lack of any cavalry is a massive drawback. I'm play-testing it in a couple of weeks so we'll see how it goes ;)
Between the chariots and actual cavalry you can field five mounted per 1000pts - that's not exactly lacking... ;)
Quote from: toxicpixie on 05 February 2015, 10:03:15 AM
Between the chariots and actual cavalry you can field five mounted per 1000pts - that's not exactly lacking... ;)
Take your point but it is compared to armies with unlimited cavalry, which, if I were facing this army (and I am in to weeks) I would take loads of cavalry; you aint going to out infantry them.
Also, I don't think of chariots as cavalry more as unique shock troops and, for the points, they're really brittle :)
Compare them to anyone except Bretonnians then - are they low in cavalry based number of units to anyone else?
Quote from: getagrip on 05 February 2015, 10:37:49 AM
Take your point but it is compared to armies with unlimited cavalry, which, if I were facing this army (and I am in to weeks) I would take loads of cavalry; you aint going to out infantry them.
Also, I don't think of chariots as cavalry more as unique shock troops and, for the points, they're really brittle :)
We found this the fundamental problem with WMF that heavy cavalry is just the best option.
That's why we switched to Impetus Fantasy - any cavalry could mass so many dice they'd just blast trough an opposing army on a couple of rolls, job done, game over :(
Quote from: fred 12df on 05 February 2015, 12:47:06 PM
We found this the fundamental problem with WMF that heavy cavalry is just the best option.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 05 February 2015, 03:59:05 PM
That's why we switched to Impetus Fantasy - any cavalry could mass so many dice they'd just blast trough an opposing army on a couple of rolls, job done, game over :(
Haven't found this but I do play very large games and use a fair bit of scenery.
In tournament style games it's certainly true.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 05 February 2015, 03:59:05 PM
That's why we switched to Impetus Fantasy - any cavalry could mass so many dice they'd just blast trough an opposing army on a couple of rolls, job done, game over :(
Warmaster cavalry heavy armies, mine included, died regularly when there was a decent amount of terrain around.
However, armoured cavalry
should be devastating in Fantasy games because that's how the source material treats them.
I have no idea why people insist on turning Fantasy into "medieval with monsters."
In fantasy, at least the stuff I've read, the following are true:
- Cavalry are queen of the battlefield
- nobody out-shoots elves
- there are no such things as skirmishers ... to be fair, I'm not sure many medieval armies understood skirmishers either :)
- peasants are cut down like chaff ... unless the hero is a peasant, in which case peasants have the combat skills of ninja and engineering skills that put The Corps of Royal Engineers to shame!
- a pointy stick is a pointy stick - a four foot javelin, a six foot spear or an eighteen foot pike all work the same
- magic is destructive but tricksy
- dragons are not invulnerable ... but you do well to remember that you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup :)
Warmaster gives me that in a way other rules have not ... so far.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 05 February 2015, 04:37:37 PM
Warmaster cavalry heavy armies, mine included, died regularly when there was a decent amount of terrain around.
However, armoured cavalry should be devastating in Fantasy games because that's how the source material treats them.
I have no idea why people insist on turning Fantasy into "medieval with monsters."
In fantasy, at least the stuff I've read, the following are true:
- Cavalry are queen of the battlefield
- nobody out-shoots elves
- there are no such things as skirmishers ... to be fair, I'm not sure many medieval armies understood skirmishers either :)
- peasants are cut down like chaff ... unless the hero is a peasant, in which case peasants have the combat skills of ninja and engineering skills that put The Corps of Royal Engineers to shame!
- a pointy stick is a pointy stick - a four foot javelin, a six foot spear or an eighteen foot pike all work the same
- magic is destructive but tricksy
- dragons are not invulnerable ... but you do well to remember that you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup :)
Warmaster gives me that in a way other rules have not ... so far.
Agree with all of this. In point of fact, your comment some time ago (in my previous incarnation) about a human having 3/3 stats has stayed with me. Nutter units aside (flagellants et al) they should be 3/3 and cavalry
should smash everything in the open.
However, if you insist on playing warmaster with very little terrain you are going to have a
very dull game.
We found scaling up the armies just meant more cavalry to overrun the more infantry :D
It's not so much that super heavy shock cavalry are dangerously Good, more that *all* cavalry are effectively super heavy shock cavalry. I enjoy the rules (and still have an army based for it just in case), but as a group we weren't very impressed. I gather Warmaster Ancients deals better with that but then we'd have to add the fantasy back in :D
Terrain - we don't play on a billiard table, but you can't hide forever unless you're the Viet Cong :D
Quote from: toxicpixie on 05 February 2015, 06:22:13 PM
Terrain - we don't play on a billiard table, but you can't hide forever unless you're the Viet Cong :D
;D
We use two or three village areas and I suppose these act a bit like infantry squares. We've also adapted some rules to make the game slicker. I know people argue this but I really think the game comes into it's own at 2000 points plus. I don't know why but cavalry seem less effective when you mass the infantry up: they seem to tun out of steam. :-\
Quote from: Ithoriel on 05 February 2015, 04:37:37 PM
Warmaster cavalry heavy armies, mine included, died regularly when there was a decent amount of terrain around.
However, armoured cavalry should be devastating in Fantasy games because that's how the source material treats them.
I have no idea why people insist on turning Fantasy into "medieval with monsters."
In fantasy, at least the stuff I've read, the following are true:
- Cavalry are queen of the battlefield
- nobody out-shoots elves
- there are no such things as skirmishers ... to be fair, I'm not sure many medieval armies understood skirmishers either :)
- peasants are cut down like chaff ... unless the hero is a peasant, in which case peasants have the combat skills of ninja and engineering skills that put The Corps of Royal Engineers to shame!
- a pointy stick is a pointy stick - a four foot javelin, a six foot spear or an eighteen foot pike all work the same
- magic is destructive but tricksy
- dragons are not invulnerable ... but you do well to remember that you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup :)
Warmaster gives me that in a way other rules have not ... so far.
Hat off for that disertation. =D>
In my humble opinion the thing has a lot to do with the way people made the armylist, not with the rule engine. If someone only think the points and how to maximieze efectiveness "is it worth? is it worth? for 5 points is not worth... do not make the list you would like to enjoy because taking another unit of heavy cavalry make you winner", yes then all the games you play are the same. But when people use the armylist to build armies beyond the "best option in points", armies that are a mirror of an idea or have a mood then the games are very diffirenent each others.
Sorry I am feeling that I could not explain myself properly... hope you get the idea of what I am trying to say.
Quote from: jchaos79 on 05 February 2015, 08:13:34 PM
In my humble opinion the thing has a lot to do with the way people made the armylist, not with the rule engine. If someone only think the points and how to maximieze efectiveness "is it worth? is it worth? for 5 points is not worth... do not make the list you would like to enjoy because taking another unit of heavy cavalry make you winner", yes then all the games you play are the same. But when people use the armylist to build armies beyond the "best option in points", armies that are a mirror of an idea or have a mood then the games are very diffirenent each others.
Sorry I am feeling that I could not explain myself properly... hope you get the idea of what I am trying to say.
Totally: don't use the rules to create a "destroy anything army" but instead build an army to a romantic ideal.
Couldn't agree mmore. I suppose that's the problem with fantasy; there isn't a historical precedent to follow :-\
The problem is not "too much heavy cavalry", but more "all cavalry is disproportionately effective". Illyrian Reavers (the elf bow armed riders, think spell check is mangling that for me!) are a good case in point - narrow bases, shooting, high move. Massive dice on a tiny frontage means they're brilliant :D Combine with high CV and they're astonishingly effective.
It's an odd conversation, I was the one in the group defending the rules and the cavalry bias. Here it looks like I'm fighting it :D
The question isn't "is cavalry disproportionately effective" so much as Ithorial touches on - "it is, and are you happy with that?".
Quote from: toxicpixie on 05 February 2015, 08:52:12 PM
The question isn't "is cavalry disproportionately effective" so much as Ithorial touches on - "it is, and are you happy with that?".
That is a very interesting / refreshing way of seeing the old conversation.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 05 February 2015, 08:52:12 PM
The problem is not "too much heavy cavalry", but more "all cavalry is disproportionately effective". Illyrian Reavers (the elf bow armed riders, think spell check is mangling that for me!) are a good case in point - narrow bases, shooting, high move. Massive dice on a tiny frontage means they're brilliant :D Combine with high CV and they're astonishingly effective.
It's an odd conversation, I was the one in the group defending the rules and the cavalry bias. Here it looks like I'm fighting it :D
The question isn't "is cavalry disproportionately effective" so much as Ithorial touches on - "it is, and are you happy with that?".
Fair point but cavalry that shoot are really tough; you can't charge 'em and neither do you want to be charged
by them.
Largely agree with Ithoriel though: them's the rules. A few tweaks here and there, I like 'em. :)
It even goes for warhounds; anything on those narrow cavalry bases becomes disproportionately good. Dogs, horses, monsters, chariots, whatever.
The Elves (and esp the Reavers) are the most egregious example. Light skirmishing cavalry who are basically eagle eyed knights with extra powerful bows, under the best available generals. Lethal!
I actually rather like Warmaster. It's just after a few games it's obvious where the issues are - I'm happy to play it off and on, accepting the above foibles, others aren't. And tbh I've found Impetus Fantasy to be the better game anyway so am not unhappy we shifted ;)
Quote from: toxicpixie on 05 February 2015, 09:15:21 PM
It even goes for warhounds; anything on those narrow cavalry bases becomes disproportionately good. Dogs, horses, monsters, chariots, whatever.
The Elves (and esp the Reavers) are the most egregious example. Light skirmishing cavalry who are basically eagle eyed knights with extra powerful bows, under the best available generals. Lethal!
I actually rather like Warmaster. It's just after a few games it's obvious where the issues are - I'm happy to play it off and on, accepting the above foibles, others aren't. And tbh I've found Impetus Fantasy to be the better game anyway so am not unhappy we shifted ;)
Fair comment: what basing does Impetus use?
We're using 15mm sized basing - 80mm wide, depth variable for unit type between 30mm for heavy foot to 60mm for mounted. I started with sabot'ing Warmaster bases onto closest way to fit, then rebased except for one army that's a keeper for me :) Basically two 'Master bases to one Impetus unit :)
Thanks, was hoping it would be the same. Couldn't bare to do it to all my WM armies. May have a go at saboting ;)
@getagrip: Which armies do you have?
@Toxicpixie: What is the army you keep and not rebase?
Quote from: jchaos79 on 05 February 2015, 10:03:58 PM
@getagrip: Which armies do you have?
Painted:
Vamps
Khemri
Empire
Elves
Samurai (own army list)
Orcs
On the bench:
Kislev
Dwarfs
Mongol (own list)
The Army of the Winter King, Fae Host of the Court of Snow and Ice. I use the Deamon army list for a themed army based on the snow faeries :D Snow trolls as Deamons, Ice Elves as Hordes, mixed centaurs (normal, Orc), wolves and all sorts as cavalry and a cunning blizzard of cotton wool as flyers! Plus a huge 28mm Fomor as a Greater Deamon - Balor of the Terrible Eye :)
Would be so nice seeing the Winter King Army and the Samurai of getagrip. 8)
Quote from: jchaos79 on 06 February 2015, 06:18:23 AM
Would be so nice seeing the Winter King Army and the Samurai of getagrip. 8)
Sorry Chaos, won't post them:
a) Not Pendraken,
b) My first 10mm army, not great :(
Try this - awkward link due to being on the phone!
https://m.facebook.com/jtppainting/photos/pb.1375731686009965.-2207520000.1423212849./1414439508805849/?type=1&source=42
Thanks Toxicp. a little bit tiny picture.. I could barely see the figs.
Getagrip: ok,
I enjoy seeing warmaster armies, I am not a superfan of the superperfect paint. Sometimes an army with character and paint to basic tabletop game caught my eye more than the superb painting like Eavy metal. It happens when I see white dwarf magazines, they are so top noch paint that... I said ok is the same on and on, they give 25 burshes strocks for painting the nose of the marine. I am not going to do that. But I enjoy seeing "real" figures, what normal people (not profesional painters) uses to play. In example, Lex painting... how I would say it... is not the most professional work I had seen.... but I really love his way of painting, rush painting, leaving metal some parts of the figure or even 10mm miniatures with 4 colours, but full of character, blue beards on dwarves, dead boars among the ranges. You see the figures and they are from Lex (with the virtude and defects) its his style. I enjoy discovering styles more than perfection in the paint.
But sorry, maybe I am hijicking your thread... to conduct them again... what was the topic? aaah yes Bestmens Army.
I leave you my proposal for Bestmens army
- Hardworkers (Inf) 3 3 6+ 2/- : they are making more hours of work in order to improve
- Employee of the month (Inf) 3 4 6+ 0/1 : This guys are above the average because they are tough and thave a great capacity of working
- Messengers (cav) 3 3 5+ : Riding their bikes they have the important mission of delivery envelops and letteres
- Sucker up boss (monst) 4 3 5+ special 1stand. Terror. Can not be dirven back by fire.: This kind of employee is a fallen bestman who can only survive in the army suching up the boss
- The field boss (cha) Command: 8 radius:20cm +0
- The superboss (cha) Command: 7 radius:60 +1
- The president of the company (General): Command 5 radius: whole battlefield +2
- Golf car (mount) this mount could be used by the presiden of the company if the battle is during the week. Superboss can use the mount if the battle is in the weekend.
;)
Quote- Golf car (mount) this mount could be used by the presiden of the company if the battle is during the week. Superboss can use the mount if the army is in the weekend.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D like that special rule
I like the "suck up"; one (or more) in every office ;)
Okay Chaos, you win. Next time I dust off my Samurai (8000+ points) I'll photograph them ;)
Try this for a bigger close up - https://fbcdn-photos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-0/1011076_1414440092139124_1782148785_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=79ed524fe34bd909b9ae142cdb6fcbec&oe=55515F7A&__gda__=1432702498_74933b3453ab5e1b9df9d2ad539cee3a
It is great, you use cotton for snow! wow that is good one.
@getagrip :-bd :ar!