Dear Chaps of the Forum,
Although being one third of the way through painting my Marlborough Wars army, and despite having just read the books on the Peninsula War and Waterloo, I listened to the Bretwalda book on the Battle of Lincoln, 1141, and noticed "Stephen and Matilda the Civil War of 1139-53" by Jim Bradbury, and now am greatly enthused by the C12. I've always liked that twilight period between the Norman conquest and the Hundred Year's War.
My question to you (the fish heads in the Pendraken stagazy pie) is have you painted painted ch ... mail? I know that during the period armour was painted red, green or black, but wandered how to replicate this in 10mm so that it looks both coloured and metallic. Any thoughts? (To anyone whose answer involved more than three applications - "thanks. I'll bear that in mind.")
Ignore the chainmail, use figures with cloth Tabards, theses were common 12th century onward.
IanS
I think it will depend on what the paint was made of and I think they only really painted helmets
If the paint was thick and gooey ( technical term) then I think you could paint the armour without any of the metal showing underneath unless you want to make it look worn and used I suppose
If they used thinnish watery paint then maybe just a wash over the metal colour you have chosen
I dont know which is correct historically but its the way I would think about doing it
I don't think mail was ever painted (in real life) or are you asking how to paint it on the figures? On the figures black undercoat, then dry brush of a dark metallic colour (blot gun metal / oil steel). Then the lightest dry brush of a bright silver colour - but not too much, I prefer my mail to look darker than the plate armour.
Painted helmets yep, but not mail (well not that I know of) :-\
Easiest way to do mail is to paint the whole surface black, let the paint dry and then gently scrape it off again, leaving the paint in the indentations. A coat of gloss varnish on the mail completes the job.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 24 January 2015, 04:12:27 PM
Ignore the chainmail, use figures with cloth Tabards, theses were common 12th century onward.
IanS
"Chainmail" alert ... "Chainmail" alert ... "Chainmail alert" ...
The Battle of Lincoln says "By this date mail was often painted ... We know of knights wearing red, black or green mail by the mid-12th century."
Silver then a black wash
Wouldn't the paint wear off as the links rubbed against each other?!
I would have thought so, but the book says, so it must be true!
They must have had bloody good enamel/varnish technology!
I'm afraid that book is starting to sound like bo**ocks to me. How on earth do flexible metal links retain paint in action. Are you sure it's not referring to lamellar armour? I think 10mm figures with coloured mail would look pretty grim TBH. Stick with the occasional painted helmet.
Plus chain armour rusts, think about an average summer in Britain, now factor in the 'Little Ice Age', it would have been cold, wet and miserable!
The standard way of clearing the rust is two suits in a barrel, topped up with sand and rolled between the two owners.
Paint would never have lasted.
The point of painting it, apparently, was as a rust proofing.
I was thinking medieval Hammerite.
Just think how much metal is rubbing against metal in a suit of mail. It's a non-starter, as indeed is lemon meringue pie.
Unless it's a blue lemon meringue pie.
Does that taste of Thousand Islands Dressing?
Painted mail might be referring to the bluing of the mail after manufacturer
Quote from: Leman on 24 January 2015, 07:51:48 PM
Does that taste of Thousand Islands Dressing?
No, a hundred year-old undressing! :-&
To which the obvious question is ... how do you know what a hundred year old undressing tastes like?
Quote from: Fenton on 24 January 2015, 07:52:35 PM
Painted mail might be referring to the bluing of the mail after manufacturer
There is bluing, and I suppose unpolished it may be blackened. There is also russeting, but I think that is a later discovery.
A reenactment group doing a long march in Roman gear a few decades ago found that mail (yes, mail) requires less upkeep and polishing than other armour as long as it's being worn; the rings chafe the rust off each other in movement.
This implies the corrolary that mail probably wore out faster than one might have wished.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 25 January 2015, 12:37:30 AM
A reenactment group doing a long march in Roman gear a few decades ago found that mail (yes, mail) requires less upkeep and polishing than other armour as long as it's being worn; the rings chafe the rust off each other in movement.
This implies the corrolary that mail probably wore out faster than one might have wished.
It's also easy to clean, chuck in a sack/barrel with some sand and shake around a bit. Easier than polishing pieces of plate in my experience.
I have written to Bretealda asking them to cite sources.
I think my problem is that I got a Kindle edition. Obviously a printed book is infallible, but the Kindle skirts the line between the sooth page and the lying internet.
I quite fancied some troops in green mail. :(
For Sir Gawain to try to cuckold?
Why not.
I may experiment with coloured mails, just 'cos I can. :P
In "Wargames Tactics" by Charles Grant there is a chapter entitled "Fracas at Bray" which is a medieval skirmish. I think the Stephen-Matilda Wars lend themselves to this format. I'd like to have some distinctively coloured lances to give me flexibility (today red and blue take on black and white - tomorrow red will defend a church against the other three.) Just need 10-15 figures per lance, perhaps a few peasants ... ooh and some Welsh, 'cos they're funny, and let chaos ensue!
Couldn't you try an appropriate coloured ink wash over 'normal' chainmail, Nobby ?
Cheers - Phil
That was my thought. Thought I'd go for the "silver" mail rather than my usual "gunmetal" mail and then slop some limey-green or reddy-brown over the top.
I shall let you know how I get on. Think I've got some Normans left over.
The only other method I tried years ago.....Which, to me. worked really well was painting a coloured Tamiya varnish over drybrushed armour/chainmail.
There was a significant drawback to using this method, in that the Tamiya varnish would 'lift/dissolve' acrylic paint.
This meant using a metallic enamel for the drybrushing.
Not a problem, way back then, as I still had pots (of pots) of metallic enamels.
Like I say.....I thought it worked really nicely....I'm not sure if Tamiya still produce those varnishes, now though. :-\
Cheers - Phil
I remember doing CHAINMAIL (correct term) with a suede brush and then varnishing. Buffed up the rings nicely. I also have never heard of painted mail, the ID was via the surcoat shield and banners.
IanS
Who let it in?
No idea - scuse me whilst I get a brush and case that cat OUT.....
IanS :d
Case out the joint - that I understand. How do you case a cat out? I resemble that remark.
I have had a response from Bretwalda.
'I fear that you may be correct. The reference was from a very learned, but rather old and therefore possibly out of date, work on medieval armour that was talking about the 11th century. On checking more up to date works I see that there is no talk about the painting of mail at all, though there is reference to coloured helmets, shields and plate. I suppose that since I can't find a reference to the fact that mail was not painted does not necessarily mean that it was not - "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and all that - but it does make it very much less likely.'
I am slightly saddened, but it is nice to see the author responding positively.
What the hell, there are always surcoats.
What a remarkably reasonable and swift reply!
PurrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
I always understood that "mail" was, by definition, interlocking rings. So "chainmail" is a redundancy. Rings sewn to a leather backing was known as "proof".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_%28armour%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_%28armour%29)
There's chainmail, ring mail, banded mail, splinted mail, plate mail .... Sheesh! Did NOBODY here play D&D but me? :)
As I understand it mail simply refers to the wearing of armour of some sort. Plate mail is completely different to chain mail but the word mail on its own does not convey which mail is being worn. What I think has happened is that as armour itself became redundant people simply referred to plate mail as plate and chain mail became shortened to mail.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 25 January 2015, 12:34:31 PM
.... Sheesh! Did NOBODY here play D&D but me? :)
Me, sir.....I did !
Cheers - Phil.
Original D&D must be right, it had stats for Jesus and everything!
I understand that the "C"-word for mail was first used in the 19th century. That doesn't count.
Quote from: Leman on 25 January 2015, 12:41:22 PM
As I understand it mail simply refers to the wearing of armour of some sort. Plate mail is completely different to chain mail but the word mail on its own does not convey which mail is being worn. What I think has happened is that as armour itself became redundant people simply referred to plate mail as plate and chain mail became shortened to mail.
Not according to Wikipedia.
Because Wikipedia is of course Gospel.
Definitely - Ize even writ bits o it bout spelin und such
Attributed to Fierce Kitty o 'course.
IanS :d
Quote from: Leman on 25 January 2015, 03:35:56 PM
Because Wikipedia is of course Gospel.
Does it have the D&D stats for Jesus?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 25 January 2015, 01:59:36 PM
I understand that the "C"-word for mail was first used in the 19th century. That doesn't count.
What "Centurion"?
Well we did once gate in both God and the Devil !!!!!
So must be yes.
Basically above about 10th level it didnt work.
IanS
Quote from: Fenton on 25 January 2015, 04:12:17 PM
Does it have the D&D stats for Jesus?
Ahem...
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/2/26/85656_md-Copyright%20Tsr,%20Deities%20And%20Demigods,%20Dungeons%20And%20Dragons,%20Humor,%20Jesus.jpg
;D ;D ;D ;D Love the blood into wine. shame he can't change corporeal flesh into gingerbread man.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 25 January 2015, 04:24:31 PM
Ahem...
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/2/26/85656_md-Copyright%20Tsr,%20Deities%20And%20Demigods,%20Dungeons%20And%20Dragons,%20Humor,%20Jesus.jpg
You'll go straight to
hell 2nd level for that one
You mean I'm out of level 7!
Wooohoooo! <:-P O:-)