Simple question, really: please can anyone tell me which Austrian units, if any, were still armed with muskets rather than Lorenz rifles at the battle of Montebello in 1859?
Chris
Mollinary and Holdfast probably your best bet on that one.
Or Camerionian or Le Manchou
No not me, Holdfast is doing an 1859 tour he'll know.
To my knowledge, the Lorenz rifle was used by all Austrian troops but some received their weapon right before the battle and didn't know how to use it well.
Would that make them F in BBB?
Not Fragile - that's a morale thing - but maybe R for "Ragged Volleys", a column shift to the left when they fire. (Which I had actually put in my draft Montebello scenario initially, then took it out, but may have to reinstate.)
Chris
That could make a very interesting variation within that scenario.
Quote from: Leman on 23 January 2015, 04:36:03 PM
Would that make them F in BBB?
They certainly were F'd that's for sure!
I will be doing my Montebello research, incl walking the ground, in a couple of months. I do not think that tweaking the performance of the muzzle-loader would affect the outcome though.
Thanks, Holdfast. I agree it shouldn't make a huge difference to the game. We're planning to fight it next week so we'll see how it goes.
Chris
Bruce Weigle in 1859 makes the point that there was reissuing of the new Lorenz in progress so that some units were 'unfamiliar' with the new one. But being unfamiliar with a better weapon probably equates to familiar with an inferior but essentially similar weapon.
Someone on the forum (sorry can't remember who, but a big thankyou) put me on to the Continental Wars Society. The stuff arrived today, including booklet No.4 Montebello. Much of it gives impressions of the battle from participants on both sides and neutral observers. It doesn't mention the Austrians having a mix of old and new weapons, which probably would have been mentioned jf it hah had a significant effect on the outcome of the battle.
Yes, I have the CWS booklet.
I also read some contemporary German work (by Muegge, I think?) which makes specific mention of the lethal effectiveness of the Jaegers with their Lorenz rifles defending Montebello. So evidently at least some of the Austrians were thoroughly familiar with the new weapon. But most of the battlefield was so 'cluttered' that I imagine the extra range of what was still a single-shot weapon wouldn't make a lot of difference.
Anyway, last night we managed to fight Montebello twice in two and a half hours, and a most entertaining game it was, producing one draw and one French last-gasp victory. So I don't think the Austrians need to be handicapped any further.
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
Chris
Don't know if it helps but the Osprey Austrian Infantry 1836-1866 contains photographs of the both the Augustin and Lorenz. There is an interesting note to the effect that the 1854 Lorenz was sighted to 900 paces for NCO's and best marksmen of the third rank, while all others were only sighted to 300 paces. If this is indeed the case, then it might suggest that the relative difference between the two weapons was not very great overall.
Chad
Thanks, Chad. Yes, I think fair to say that skilled musketry was not a high priority for the Austrian army.
Chris
I don't do historical but love reading all of this. :)
Just looked up Montebello 1859. How the hell did the Austrians lose?
Also, how do you play this as a decent game without:
a) Hamstringing the Austrians to the point they can't fight;
b) Making it a foregone conclusion?
Quote from: getagrip on 03 February 2015, 05:40:07 PM
b) Making it a foregone conclusion?
That'll be the dice then...
Oh - and never underestimate the ability of wargamer's to make daft decisions / forget about flank forces / drink too much whilst playing etc etc etc ;)
Quote from: nikharwood on 03 February 2015, 06:06:23 PM
That'll be the dice then...
Oh - and never underestimate the ability of wargamer's to make daft decisions / forget about flank forces / drink too much whilst playing etc etc etc ;)
Yeah, but fundamentally you are aiming to create a battle that mirrors the original? Isn't it then that all of the above takes over?
There is some fun to be had trying to not lose as badly as your historical counterparts too.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 03 February 2015, 07:40:16 PM
There is some fun to be had trying to not lose as badly as your historical counterparts too.
Yep, I think that's the one - it's a decent challenge...
Well, my interpretation of the battle was that, apart from being spread out and uncoordinated and with a somewhat vague mission, the Austrians were deceived by Forey's aggression into believing that they faced far more French than they did (witness their AARs which I think speak of 30 or 40,000 French, not the <10,000 there really were).
So for my scenario, I decided to reward Allied aggression appropriately. Each turn that the Allies try to charge an Austrian unit, they deter the arrival of Austrian reinforcements. If on any turn the Allies do not initiate a charge, the Austrians get to bring on a reinforcement unit from Brigades Bils, von Hessen or Boer. In our games this did seem to capture the flavor of the battle and produce the right kind of results. The 3-page scenario is all on Flickr:
https://flic.kr/p/qAKhf1
https://flic.kr/p/qAKhis
https://flic.kr/p/qALjvd
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 04 February 2015, 12:58:54 PM
Well, my interpretation of the battle was that, apart from being spread out and uncoordinated and with a somewhat vague mission, the Austrians were deceived by Forey's aggression into believing that they faced far more French than they did (witness their AARs which I think speak of 30 or 40,000 French, not the <10,000 there really were).
So for my scenario, I decided to reward Allied aggression appropriately. Each turn that the Allies try to charge an Austrian unit, they deter the arrival of Austrian reinforcements. If on any turn the Allies do not initiate a charge, the Austrians get to bring on a reinforcement unit from Brigades Bils, von Hessen or Boer. In our games this did seem to capture the flavor of the battle and produce the right kind of results. The 3-page scenario is all on Flickr:
https://flic.kr/p/qAKhf1
https://flic.kr/p/qAKhis
https://flic.kr/p/qALjvd
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
Awesome idea; I will be adapting this ;)
You're welcome, help yourself!
A similar approach worked nicely for Langensalza as well.
Chris