What exactly is meant by carrying muskets 'at the trail?' I understand that this involves carrying muskets low and in the right hand but are the weapons held horizontally or almost vertically or what? If held horizontally, it seems to me there is potential for accidents (with fixed bayonets!) or clattering of other soldiers' muskets unless the gap between ranks is considerably extended.
Normally in the right hand at the balance-point of the weapon, horizontal with the ground.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NKiF4a_Ivms/UUnPyci7neI/AAAAAAAAAHA/rllQxfXrV8I/s1600/perd.jpg)
You can even do it with an AK47
Thanks for the photo, Hertsblue - that's how I understood 'at the trail' to be - and that's why I can't understand it in terms of the AWI (having read that British troops were known to advance at the trail). :-\
The guys in the photo are in ranks two paces apart and there is only a slight gap between the muzzle of one rank's AK 47s and the butt of the AK 47s in the ranks in front so everything appears to be neat and tidy.
However, an AK47 is only 87cm long whilst a Short Land Pattern Brown Bess musket (without bayonet) is 149cm long - a difference of 62cm (approx. 2 feet 2 inches). This suggests to me that AWI era ranks would therefore have to be more than 2 paces apart or the weapons held differently otherwise weapons will clash with all sorts of consequences.
I therefore wonder if the photo depicts a 'parade ground' position but, in the field, the musket would be held in a more loosely angled posture? Further thoughts anyone?
Having run around various battlefields as a Napoleonic light infantryman.... From what I remember...our at trail had the muzzle raised..probably to stop the ball getting jiggled out. We never legged it with bayonets fixed though.
Bayonets would only be fixed when absolutely needed. They make loading the thing difficult, and are as dangerous to your own side as the enemy. Standing orders for Salisbury Plain are bayonets are not to be fixed.
IanS
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the spacing for British infantry in the AWI was doubled because of the rough terrain and the lower troop densities.
But I could be wrong.
Well, the Prussians did it, with bayonets fixed, in 1866. If you google Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68 Alf Ober-Priem you should find, under images, a reproduction on Flickr, of a wonderful print showing Prussian infantry attacking at Koniggratz. They carry the rifle with the butt low, and the bayonet high, as you might expect. If you ever get the chance to pick a Dreyse up, it is an unwieldy beast at the best of times.
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 14 January 2015, 01:25:00 PM
Well, the Prussians did it, with bayonets fixed, in 1866. If you google Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68 Alf Ober-Priem you should find, under images, a reproduction on Flickr, of a wonderful print showing Prussian infantry attacking at Koniggratz. They carry the rifle with the butt low, and the bayonet high, as you might expect. If you ever get the chance to pick a Dreyse up, it is an unwieldy beast at the best of times.
Mollinary
Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68
Auf Ober-Priem
Good print that, and equally good to know that such figures are available from Pendraken.
Quote from: cameronian on 14 January 2015, 01:49:43 PM
Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68 Auf Ober-Priem
I think the American vernacular is "whatever"!
Mollinary
You've taken it the wrong way, I was actually trying to be helpful. As it stood; Google 'Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68 Alf Ober-Priem ' - like wot you said, and nothing came up, however Google 'Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68 Auf Ober-Priem' which I think is what you meant, and the print comes up nicely ;)
Hi Cam,
Sorry, your first comment did come out rather stark, and seemed somewhat unnecessarily pedantic, although obviously not intended. I am afraid my original post was yet another example of being unable to get all the stupid errors committed by the auto correct software. Still, glad you liked the print, even if I don't believe it to be the 68th!
Mollinary
Hugs
Quote from: cameronian on 14 January 2015, 04:01:55 PM
You've taken it the wrong way, I was actually trying to be helpful. As it stood; Google 'Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68 Alf Ober-Priem ' - like wot you said, and nothing came up, however Google 'Angriff des Infanterie Regiment Nr. 68 Auf Ober-Priem' which I think is what you meant, and the print comes up nicely ;)
For the want of a nail....
Though considering what gets done to English here, German's getting off lightly.
Jawohl!
Mollinary is as ever correct. But it is worth remembering that because the Prussians had a breech loader there is no need to ram the round down the barrel from the front so the chance of impaling your hand goes down a lot.
With the SLR the unfix bayonets carried the risk of pulling jerking the bayonet upwards into the lower jaw, probably no longer allowed on HSE grounds.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 15 January 2015, 10:28:32 AM
Though considering what gets done to English here, German's getting off lightly.
German is getting off lightly :-\
I believe the apostrophe is in the correct place for the written version of informal spoken English.
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 15 January 2015, 11:26:47 PM
I believe the apostrophe is in the correct place for the written version of informal spoken English.
Isn't that called GIBBERISH
IanS
Und zo, back to der topik!
Thanks guys. The Prussian Koniggratz print has convinced me that rifles or muskets were angled when held 'at the trail.' Seems to me that's the best for trotting or running without wasting time to carry out any further formation changes (e.g., to widen the gap between ranks to stop weapons clashing).
American participants commented on how rapidly the Brits advanced and from the Brits viewpoint I can see the need to narrow that gap between you and the enemy as quickly as possible - otherwise the Yanks will have more time to reload and fire more shots at you. I imagine they would also have run with bayonets fixed (as per the Prussian print) with no regard for Health & Safety (particularly the enemy's) and by the time of the "Huzzah!" will have grabbed the musket with both hands and charged in. I was also perusing the Perry Miniatures website and they also show Brits advancing at the trail with muskets held at an angle (see plastic box range illustration).
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2832&osCsid=vbs8m1pjlgj7rivieph8ji5un1 (https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2832&osCsid=vbs8m1pjlgj7rivieph8ji5un1)
Therefore (donning Barrister's wig) I believe we can rest our case, m'lud. Weapons 'at the trail' were held at an angle and not horizontally which is for parade grounds only.
Thanks, again.
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 15 January 2015, 11:26:47 PM
I believe the apostrophe is in the correct place for the written version of informal spoken English.
I believe you are possibly correct.
Quote from: Westmarcher on 12 January 2015, 01:59:32 PM
What exactly is meant by carrying muskets 'at the trail?' I understand that this involves carrying muskets low and in the right hand but are the weapons held horizontally or almost vertically or what? If held horizontally, it seems to me there is potential for accidents (with fixed bayonets!) or clattering of other soldiers' muskets unless the gap between ranks is considerably extended.
No, not horizontally in the 18th/19th century, the weapon was far too long. Take a look at this link:
http://acws.co.uk/gilhams/gilharm5.htm
Many thanks for that further confirmation, John. :)
So glad there was also an illustration - for a while, I was perplexed by the sentence, "The butt should be kept about three inches off the ground and the right hand held at the hip." :o :-\
Shades of ....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Qhbdijv5Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Qhbdijv5Y) ! ;) Regards.
That would seem to be an incredibly tiring way to carry a musket/rifle. Particularly if you carry it with the arm bent. It's always easier to carry a weight with a straight arm.
Whatever any regulations say, you carry it at the point of balance in a way that you are comfortable with in real life.