As a Pendraken customer - my wife would say junkie - it might be useful to get some feedback from Leon on emerging trends within 10mm in general and Pendraken in particular. 10mm is still the poor relation of 15mm in terms of sales and users.
It would be very interesting to know the best sellers in 2014.
How did new models such as the much requested Centurion actually sell?
Is the Sherman, Tiger and T34 still best sellers? Is the WW2 market reaching saturation ?
How did the new range like Falklands compare with say Vietnam in respect of sales?
What are the white elephant moulds that sit redundant on the shelf and are seldom requested ?
I initiate this discussion for two reasons; First, I believe Forum faithful can play a part in good market research, but to do so they need to appreciate that requests must have wide appeal otherwise it won't justify the outlay in sculpt and moulds (I assume a mould lasts about 30 casts?). Secondly, whitemetal models last forever. Our 10mm T34s don't wear out. My son is gaming with my 30 year old H&R 6mm. This product durability means that repeat customers must be attracted to new products and ranges . This means speculation and risk by Pendraken. How can we downsize this risk?
Perhaps the way forward is for a coterie of customers to commission a range. Say for sake of argument a number of gamers want a number of specific African Bush war models and figures. Then that group puts up the investment and when a commercially viable number of pre-orders have been acquired, the sculpts are made and the first edition produced. Like a save the church spire appeal a forum chart would tell us when a requested model(s) were viable.
What does the Forum - and Pendraken - think ?
No 1. Leave off the Centurion. >:(
Weren't the mongols of 2014 the forum members in action?
The problem with asking forum members to suggest new ranges is that you're not going to get more than about 20% to agree which means that you will disappoint 80% of people. The mongols,. for example, left me completely cold and I didn't feel engaged in the whole process. (Not that I was sulking in my yurt, I just wasn't interested.)
However, I do think there could be a mechanism designed that allows customer input into the process.
You can have my Centurions when you take them from my cold dead hands - FSN
Quote from: fsn on 01 January 2015, 11:15:51 AM
No 1. Leave off the Centurion. >:(
You can have my Centurions when you take them from my cold dead hands - FSN
Bout 2 weeks then ?
Mongols are lovely figures. Do have one question - why no shields ?
IanS
Think the main problem with this idea is time, how much time to count it all up and process results? ;)
I have kind of done this for an obscure range by funding The Picts myself. But the production backlog and work for other companies (which Dave and Leon only ever hint at, but I'm sure happens) means I am patiently waiting. ;)
Plus there is Techno's 'You Want What' offer.
And all of those that took to time to buyinto Mongols, however lots said they would and never did...
And the 28mm Kickstarter of which I have no idea when I will use them...
But otherwise, I like picking obscure, unphotographed, items, buying them and painting them to see what I get (winged serpents)!
I have to agree with Fsn (shock! horror!) that the process of getting wargamers to settle on a common interest is rather more tricky than herding cats. I, too, had little interest in Mongols, although I applaud the effort and creativity that went into obtaining them. The spectrum of wargaming ranges is so vast that arriving at a consensus is well nigh impossible. Someone is always going to feel disappointed or excluded. The current system of a league table, updated at intervals, is far from ideal, but, like democracy, it is the best available at this time.
Agree with Nobby, Will & Ray.
I could write pages about this.....But I really must get back to the soldiers sitting on the radiator. ;)
Cheers - Phil.
The Mongols and all the post-1930 stuff leaves me completely cold. Fed up with people banging on about bloody vehicles. I want Picts.
I would imagine that 'predicting the next big thing' and lining up miniatures to exploit that is the motherlode for any miniature company, including Pendraken. ;D Diving into a fad is no doubt a serious financial risk for any company.
We've talked about this sort of thing before and i think its a sign of Pendraken's quality that it has such a loyal following; especially in the 10mm market which is, what should we say?, just off the mainstream.
In terms of 'market research', i've always felt it best to engage with Pendraken and give them my honest opinion when they ask for it. Sculpting and tooling up a new range is, as far as i now, a major investment so anything we can do as the customer base to help minimise their risks is ultimately in our hobby interests as well as Pendraken's commercial interests.
I await their 2015 releases with interest. :D
GRRRRR! I cannot believe you lot dissing the Mongols. Now if you were talking AWI then I would agree but Mongols... Poor old Chinggis will be turning in his grave if he knew what was going on. He would call a kuriltai and Europe would get it for sure this time (except for the true believers that is). So you lot are the first against the wall -if they leave one still standing. This time there will be Mongol Zombies and Mongol Ghouls and whatever nasty supernatural beings you can think of! (Leon, are you reading this?).
Quote from: ianrs54 on 01 January 2015, 12:12:18 PM
Bout 2 weeks then ?
Mongols are lovely figures. Do have one question - why no shields ?
IanS
To be honest, in my extensive research over a period of about twenty years I have yet to find definitive proof that the Mongols carried shields into combat. The
kesig (Guard) units are mentioned as carrying them while on duty on foot but whether this practice was followed on horse is unknown and if so is undocumented. But in saying that, there are supposed to be a mass of contemporary documents still waiting to be translated from Chinese into a language that I can understand, i.e. English.
Some of the heavy cavalry are known to have ridden armoured horses but this point seems to have fallen on deaf ears and I can't be ar*ed to make it from greenstuff. (Leon, are you still reading?)
As far as I am concerned Pendraken already covers almost anything I would want to do in 10mm so I will leave it there.
Not dissing the mongols. Just not interested. I agree that the American Rebellion is also not of any great interest.
Likewise: Mongols, AWI, LOA - lovely figures but the periods do not set me aflame. The great thing about the massive WWII range, which leaves me about as cold as Greenland on a day like today, is the extras that come with it, i.e. wagons, tents, camp stoves, boxes and sacks, street barricades and so on.
My $0.02 from afar on (yet another :o ) sunny day in Wellington.
PM have been going for 20 odd years and have built up a very diverse and extensive set of ranges over that time.
I'm a recent "convert" to 10mm and have so far only seen the PM AWI and WW1 ranges "in the flesh", but very impressed how they turn out.
There are ranges that I would love to see PM extend their offerings - especially post 1945, though given my limited available time for gaming I would have to justify getting into another 10mm period (both to myself and the wife ;) ) But as she says can't please everyone all the time.
Sure there are other manufacturers who do make much more extensive modern ranges in 10/12mm if I wanted to go that way but got to say that I would stay a loyal PM customer due to the company's OUTSTANDING customer service.
Thats what makes the difference to me, as a long range overseas customer. I'd love to be able to rock up to the Pendraken stand at Colours, Salute etc and buy stuff face to face but its not going to happen (well we'll see :) ).
So when ordering I like to see whats on offer (i.e. pics of product on the website) and pay actual postage, not a flat 40 or more % that some places charge. Leon and co are very good at answering any questions and don't mind adding on last minute changes/additions.
PM ticks all the boxes for what I want so "I'll be back" in 2015, probably for some 1940 CoC stuff (for a start ;) ).
I do think the "Pendraken-starter" approach is a good one - even when people inevitably drop out, and all the others for whom period X doesn't appeal, it helps cover a big chunk of the start up costs for a new range thus meaning Pendraken can afford to take a chance on things that otherwise are a definite no...
That said clearing the production queue and getting stuff on sale quicker would likely help - I was holding out for new Gauls but that project had partly gone elsewhere and partly been replaced by other projects as they haven't appeared yet :( I might be tempted to a few when they eventually appear, but probably not now!
Ok gentlemen, thanks for taking the trouble to reply. s
A lot of points of view and comment from the customers that Leon and Dave can digest at their leisure.
Basically we are happy bunnies with the status quo. Personally I don't see any" Big Next New Thing" for 10mm, other than old moulds being updated by new more accurate sculpts and existing ranges completed. We may also see a little bit of scale creep.
In reply to my "commission a sculpt" concept, it is the simple application of market forces to indicate popular demand. Not just driven by the pester power of a few post happy individuals with idiosyncratic taste in figures/models * .
If twenty punters are putting cash (venture capital) up front for -say 2 to 4 Toyota pick up "Technicals "each - then the risk of the sculpt is covered, and there is a market out there.
Looking back at my own wargame experience, its amazing what was played with a very limited range of Airfix and Matchbox plastic kits. We are really spoiled for choice in 10mm.
It would be good to hear Leon's feedback on 2014 best sellers of the new sculpts and popular ranges.
Best wishes
Sunray
*In admitting a personal idiosyncratic taste, I must confess to having models of the FV4007 in five different scales. My first was a diecast Corgi back in the 1960s.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 02 January 2015, 12:45:18 AM
I do think the "Pendraken-starter" approach is a good one - even when people inevitably drop out, and all the others for whom period X doesn't appeal, it helps cover a big chunk of the start up costs for a new range thus meaning Pendraken can afford to take a chance on things that otherwise are a definite no...
That said clearing the production queue and getting stuff on sale quicker would likely help - I was holding out for new Gauls but that project had partly gone elsewhere and partly been replaced by other projects as they haven't appeared yet :( I might be tempted to a few when they eventually appear, but probably not now!
I don't believe that it's possible to speed up the production times without putting more staff on the job - something a small business would not contemplate without a guaranteed market at the other end. It is, after all, a lot quicker to think up new figures than to actually produce them in metal. And as others have said, wargaming fads come and go rapidly. The start-up scheme seems to have worked well, although only Pendraken knows how well, but was it at the expense of other projects? As Freddy Mercury used to sing, "Iwant it all, I want it all, and I want it now!" but does it ever happen? It's a law of nature that anything that's labour-intensive takes a long time.
Oh, and Subedai, I understand the new Mongol figures are superb - I'm just not interested in owning any.
I know, there's a lot in the pipeline and when the pipe is constrained it comes out very slowly!
Just frustration when there's a really nice set of masters shown and they'll be out soon and then... Aren't. Doubly so when other really nice stuff (like the Spanish) seems to sneak out before hand - I don't have a use for them by so tempting but have got to resist ;)
One of the problems as I see it, is that if you are going to produce a new range, you invariably have to produce one or more additional ranges to provide opposition for a war game. The Mongol range needs Chinese, Eastern European Medieval and 13thC Middle Eastern opponents.
Napoleonic period covers such a range of campaigns and armies, that to cover it would require a huge investment by the company ( as would the Mongol 'opposition') . As good as the figures are the 1809 campaign has no interest for me, but I doubt there would be sufficient interest from other members for say 1805-1807 to justify the necessary investment. I therefore have never suggested it.
I would love to do the French Revolution, but the existing range is incomplete (apart from being older castings) and would require expansion to incorporate at least Prussians.
None of this is intended as criticism of Leon and Dave, but as examples of difficulty they face in selecting new ranges.
Chad
I would love 1806 Prussains!
Slightly off topic
But I notice that Eureka have stopped their 100 and 300 clubs due to the popularity of crowdfunding
Quote from: Chad on 02 January 2015, 03:46:06 PM
One of the problems as I see it, is that if you are going to produce a new range, you invariably have to produce one or more additional ranges to provide opposition for a war game. The Mongol range needs Chinese, Eastern European Medieval and 13thC Middle Eastern opponents.
Chad
In actual fact, as far as I can determine, the only opponents not currently covered in 10mm by anyone are the Russians -but I am open to correction. The Polish and Hungarians can be covered by a mix of early medieval types in ringmail with heater shields, teardrop shields, kite shields and round shields -all types were used. This goes for cavalry as well as the town militia who would be dressed in whatever the town or city could afford. For other infantry, generic peasants or Saxon and Norman figures are more than useful. All of these are already available from Pendraken.
For the Middle East, the Abbasid and Ayyubid dynasties fell in 1258 and 1259 respectively after Baghdad and Damamscus were destroyed by the Ilkhanids so any of those figure types are usable as opponents for the Mongols -the Pendraken Arab range is a good start. (In fact, the Pendraken Arab HC AB9 is close enough to be used as Russian but that's about it). The Arab and Mongol cavalry can be mixed and used as Mamluks or Kipchaq armoured cavalry and any generic Middle Eastern type of mounted archer or even the Mongol LC can be used as Alans, Circassians and other Kipchaq LC. The Khwazimian royal guard were all from the Kangli tribe -one of the Kipchaq group of nomads- so again Arab mixed with Mongols will do more than adequately.
The Chinese are covered by at least one other manufacturer and the models are compatible with Pendraken. (I know, I have shed loads of them.)
Therefore, armed with this information, to my mind it makes perfect economic sense to go with the untapped market of Russians. But as others have already said, the wishes of the few would not justify a complete range.
As far as other new ranges are concerned, carry on.
Times like this we need a "like" button as I echo all that Subedai says it that last post :)
Subodai
You are very fortunate to have the option of filling in from other ranges and having a compatible other manufacturer available. This is not a position that all of us can enjoy. Do all members who purchased the Mongol range know of the fill-in figures and the compatible manufacturer?
Taking Lemmey's point about 1806 Prussians. You would then need Saxons (unless you ignore Jena) and early Russians (unless you ignore Eylau). Then you would have to determine how many of the Revolutionary era French would be suitable with the possibility that additional figures would be needed. Austerlitz would present a similar problem, requiring early Russians. It does not make perfect economic sense in such situations. There are alternative manufacturers, but some are (a) incomplete ranges and (b) incompatible.
Another example are the Prussians for 1815. The line would be fine for 1813, but are the Reserve regiments going to be produced for that campaign?
Chad
Quote from: Chad on 03 January 2015, 11:17:33 AM
Subodai
You are very fortunate to have the option of filling in from other ranges and having a compatible other manufacturer available. This is not a position that all of us can enjoy. Do all members who purchased the Mongol range know of the fill-in figures and the compatible manufacturer?
I agree I am fortunate, but this is not the first time that I have posted this information. When the Mongols first came out I mentioned that other ranges were usable for all but Russians. To my mind, research is an integral part of the hobby concerning all aspects of both the historical army and also the availability of figures, if necessary sourcing them from a number of manufacturers as and when required. I would like to think that purchasers of the Mongol range who had already made the commitment to use them as medieval Mongols and not in a fantasy or other period would have had one eye on enemies. The information is out there, research will find it, or, with the number of forums on wargaming, someone will have the information they are willing to share...and I include myself in that category.
QuoteTaking Lemmey's point about 1806 Prussians. You would then need Saxons (unless you ignore Jena) and early Russians (unless you ignore Eylau). Then you would have to determine how many of the Revolutionary era French would be suitable with the possibility that additional figures would be needed. Austerlitz would present a similar problem, requiring early Russians. It does not make perfect economic sense in such situations. There are alternative manufacturers, but some are (a) incomplete ranges and (b) incompatible.
Another example are the Prussians for 1815. The line would be fine for 1813, but are the Reserve regiments going to be produced for that campaign?
Chad
Going back to my point above, all of your comments are something that the individual should take into account when they embark on a new period. I just briefly looked at my copy of Jena - Auerstadt, The Triumph of the Eagle and immediately concluded that in 10mm, SYW Prussian infantry would work for Saxons and any generic hussar in a mirliton would be okay for Saxon hussars. (Or you could check out the Eureka site they do all the AB figures). If nobody makes a particular range then there is probably a good economical reason why not, after all, no manufacturer whose livelihood is based on sales is going to commission a range that will -to all intents and purposes- not be a 'seller', unless of course they are a Lottery winner who does it for fun. (I can dream can't I?)
This point is also relevant for Prussians. The Reserve regiments wore such diverse uniforms to start with and after a few months in the field they would be wearing anything they could get their hands on so you could probably use a shirtless civilian figure from a medieval range and he would not look too much out of place. More seriously, the British supplied a lot of uniforms to the Prussians so Peninsular stovepipe shako wearers are useful, French tunics and shako's were also worn so it could be that only a different paint job is required.
I think, and I make this as a generalisation rather than aimed at any individual, that wargamers today are so spoilt for choice that sometimes they either can't be ar*ed or think that their time is too important to waste it on research for anything. It's getting like a fast food takeaway, they want it immediately so it goes from the packet to the table with none of the boring intermediate stages like painting. To me, that is a massive loss because all aspects of the hobby are an important means to an end.
As primarily a wargamer who sees figures, first and foremost, as gaming pieces I am amazed and amused by the angst expended on the accuracy of figures.
Having been brought up on,"Black hat, red jacket, white trousers - British. Black hat, blue jacket, white trousers - French" because there were so few sources of figures I'd have said,"Type of shako? Position of cartridge box? Sword or bayonet? Who cares!" but it turns out that the answer to that question is,"Far more people than I'd realised!!"
Here's hoping 2015 brings at least some of you at least some of the figures you are looking for.
I'm off to turn some 6mm New Kingdom Egyptian swordsmen into Sumerian Guardsmen, I'll (eventually) post pics if that works. Though at the rate I'm painting these days it may depend on my living long enough to finish them :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 03 January 2015, 01:55:22 PM
As primarily a wargamer who sees figures, first and foremost, as gaming pieces I am amazed and amused by the angst expended on the accuracy of figures.
Having been brought up on,"Black hat, red jacket, white trousers - British. Black hat, blue jacket, white trousers - French" because there were so few sources of figures I'd have said,"Type of shako? Position of cartridge box? Sword or bayonet? Who cares!" but it turns out that the answer to that question is,"Far more people than I'd realised!!"
Here's hoping 2015 brings at least some of you at least some of the figures you are looking for.
I'm off to turn some 6mm New Kingdom Egyptian swordsmen into Sumerian Guardsmen, I'll (eventually) post pics if that works. Though at the rate I'm painting these days it may depend on my living long enough to finish them :)
Keep plugging away, they should be fun to see.
I am assuming that like me you hail from an earlier age of wargaming where if you wanted anything in lead apart from British or French Napoleonics, the odd ancient Roman or Greek etc, you either tried converting or looked at Airfix for inspiration. To me, even now if it looks close enough then that's exactly what it is...close enough and I'm not going to quibble -especially in 10mm, I'll leave that to the annoying sh*ts of the rivet counting persuasion.
I also agree, having happily wargamed in the 60s with Airfix WWI French masquerading as ACW zouaves - banana oil et al.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 03 January 2015, 01:55:22 PM
As primarily a wargamer who sees figures, first and foremost, as gaming pieces I am amazed and amused by the angst expended on the accuracy of figures.
Having been brought up on,"Black hat, red jacket, white trousers - British. Black hat, blue jacket, white trousers - French" because there were so few sources of figures I'd have said,"Type of shako? Position of cartridge box? Sword or bayonet? Who cares!" but it turns out that the answer to that question is,"Far more people than I'd realised!!"
I totally agree. I have a large 10mm Dacian army - basically a warband army so by adding and removing a few units I can morph it into , Gallic, Ancient British ,Germanic. Yes sometimes the shield may be incorrect and the archers may need to count as warband , but none of my opponents has worried about that.
Pendraken need to produce what is comercially viable.
It may well be better to produce a complete new range than add specialised figures into ranges., that will only sell limited quantities.
"Range X simply isn't complete without figure Y" where Y will sell precisely one figure per set of people playing... Must strike fear into the hearts of figure makers everywhere...
Quote from: Subedai on 03 January 2015, 02:10:36 PM
I am assuming that like me you hail from an earlier age of wargaming where if you wanted anything in lead apart from British or French Napoleonics, the odd ancient Roman or Greek etc, you either tried converting or looked at Airfix for inspiration. To me, even now if it looks close enough then that's exactly what it is...close enough and I'm not going to quibble -especially in 10mm, I'll leave that to the annoying sh*ts of the rivet counting persuasion.
I totally agree :)
Cheers
Ian
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 03 January 2015, 02:44:26 PM
I also agree, having happily wargamed in the 60s with Airfix WWI French masquerading as ACW zouaves - banana oil et al.
Ahh, the joys of banana oil, not only did it have a myriad uses for wargamers it also smelled.....haruummpphh, enough of that. My first plastic Napoleonic Prussians were made WW I French with small pieces of paper straw filled with plasticene hardened with banana oil for shakos. I hunted for ages to find the right sized straws that sat exactly on the rim of the Adrian helmet.
Fantastic. Ah, the days of wargame pioneering.
Beeswax was our material of choice for modifying Airfix figures. Then given a couple of coats of polyurethane varnish.
What a lucid informed discussion we have on these pages. If I can sum up:
1. There is a realisation that Pendraken is a small business. They can't pander to every whim and desire.
2. 10mm is a small market. About one punter for every ten gaming in 15mm.
3. Its the good service and personal touch that maintains customer loyalty to the Pendraken Brand.
4. The Forum is obviously a central dynamic to the business. It provides a connection to the customer base. Emerging trends in the market can be discussed and
debated. On another forum we have been discussing the 1945 invasion of German from the west. The fanatical German defence of the Fatherland i and the new kit/better logistics available to the Allies makes a good contest . Speaking of new kit, the Comet is shortly to appear on Pendraken lists- is there for example scope for a supplementary" late war range" of figures and weapons that takes us up to VE Day ?
Quote from: Sunray on 05 January 2015, 12:08:18 PM
2. 10mm is a small market. About one punter for every ten gaming in 15mm.
Not extracting the Michael, but is that 1 in 10 gaming in 10mm?
Late war would be of some interest, though to be honest my interest really stops at the Westwall. However, I do remember a hint from Dave about his being interested in 1946, so that would sort of link ...
In general I have to agree with your summary. We love Pendraken because of what it is and what it does, and I don't think by and large we have many (serious) complaints. For every person disappointed that the Nap Brits haven't appeared yet, there's another whose made up with the LoA quill maker. I have written before that I would like to see on this forum or on the web site a sort of "forthcoming attractions" page. List in vague terms the upcoming releases and what stage they're at.
I realise this would be double edged - I'd all be getting excited about the release of the Centurion ARK, but Fenton would be bemoaning the delay to the 2nd Bttn Worcester Sauciers, 1882 which he needed for his "Up the Arsenal (British South-West-East Africa, 1881-1883)" campaign, but at least we could all see what was going on.
Quote from: Sunray on 05 January 2015, 12:08:18 PM
2. 10mm is a small market. About one punter for every ten gaming in 15mm.
The trade estimate based on sales is that for every one 10 mm gamer, there are approximately ten gamers in 15mm. I confess I have no trade sales figures or stats, but base it on anecdotal evidence from traders and the historic attachment to both 6mm and 15mm which stems from the days when they were used for AVF recognition.
The first time I ever saw a 6mm T55 tank was in the optics of a Milan.
QuoteSunray
The first time I ever saw a 6mm T55 tank was in the optics of a Milan.
;D ;D ;D
Now that is real 6mm wargaming on a grand scale!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 02 January 2015, 03:47:45 PM
I would love 1806 Prussains!
Yes indeed ML, but we'd also need 1806 French. One of the principal problems I have is ranges that are unfinished such that I just don't start anything new these days until the entire range is complete.
Quote from: John Cook on 05 January 2015, 10:05:04 PM
Yes indeed ML, but we'd also need 1806 French. One of the principal problems I have is ranges that are unfinished such that I just don't start anything new these days until the entire range is complete.
Interesting and valid comment John. Would it be a prudent measure to suggest that Pendraken fill in the gaps in present ranges before any new ventures ?
I have to confess that I dabble in figures - get them penny packet, paint them and play them. The more unpainted metal arrives, the more sits unpainted.
Quote from: Sunray on 05 January 2015, 11:34:41 PM
Interesting and valid comment John. Would it be a prudent measure to suggest that Pendraken fill in the gaps in present ranges before any new ventures ?
I have to confess that I dabble in figures - get them penny packet, paint them and play them. The more unpainted metal arrives, the more sits unpainted.
I think so. I'd rather see one new venture completed, and released in one go, than half a dozen incomplete with the gaps filled over a period. Perhaps that's just me as it is how I approach my wargaming projects - I'll stick to one until completed to the point where I have two representative and viable 'armies'. I do have the advantage of being retired so distractions, like having to work for a living, are fewer.
QuoteI'd rather see one new venture completed, and released in one go,
IIRC this is the way Dave and Leon are going, hence the lack of regular releases for the month of January etc. Although I miss the monthly updates, I do prefer to see a complete range released so that I can buy all that I need in one hit, rather than in dribs and drabs over a long period.
A note on the webstore re:other ranges to fill out or provide opponents might be good. If the Mongols page had something like Subedai's excellent "mini-army list" for possible opponents above it would possibly have peaked my interest more. I know there's probably a lot of stuff that *could* be used as opponents but I wasn't interested enough to actually look; a quick "have a look at these for possible opponents" message might have got me moving!
Note - I still aren't personally buying Mongols as I've got far too much on and no time or money to finish everything g I'm currently flailing at anyway :D
I have come to the conclusion that it is history that is at fault here not the manufacturers of figures. If all the armies from the same war wore the same uniform but in different colours there wouldn't be a problem of unfinished ranges because one size would fit all.
;) :) :)
That'd save me trawling the web and spending money on books :D
Quote from: Subedai on 06 January 2015, 11:04:43 AM
I have come to the conclusion that it is history that is at fault here not the manufacturers of figures. If all the armies from the same war wore the same uniform but in different colours there wouldn't be a problem of unfinished ranges because one size would fit all.
This idea could arguably have been applied to the SYW, where 1 figure in each of tricorne, mitre, bearskin and fusilier cap would have covered practically all requirements. Cavalry could have been dealt with similarly. This is the Spencer Smith approach and I wonder how many SYW enthusiasts would have been happy with this? It would certainly have saved on the resources used by Pendraken.
I have used this method for my 1866 Western Theatre armies, because the size of the forces involved are too small in my opinion to justify specific models.
The Napoleonic period is probably the worst case of uniform changes, with major combatants having an average of 3 changes of uniform style from 1792 to 1815. The availability of figures would then be limited by demand and resources required to produce models for each campaign. This is well illustrated by Prussian Reserve Regts of 1813 which had a variety of uniforms. Given that each regiment's uniform was different both from other reserve regiments and often within the battalions of the same regiment and that they effectively only campaigned for less than 3 months from August 2013, there would seem to be little economic reason why Pendraken would invest resources in producing such models, unless demand was sufficient.
Do you go to other manufacturers? Personally, only if the quality of the figures is as good as Pendraken, they are compatable in size and at a similar price. In some cases, the answer to all those points is no; in others the ranges are incomplete so I will have to file my wish list away! :(
Do I switch scales? The simple answer is no, because I have neither the resources or time (or indeed the inclination!).
Back to rivet counting. :D
Chad
Quote from: toxicpixie on 06 January 2015, 08:42:09 AM
A note on the webstore re:other ranges to fill out or provide opponents might be good. If the Mongols page had something like Subedai's excellent "mini-army list" for possible opponents above it would possibly have peaked my interest more. I know there's probably a lot of stuff that *could* be used as opponents but I wasn't interested enough to actually look; a quick "have a look at these for possible opponents" message might have got me moving!
Note - I still aren't personally buying Mongols as I've got far too much on and no time or money to finish everything g I'm currently flailing at anyway :D
I'd be quite happy to do the opponents list if asked...only would it set a precedent for others to do the same for their favourite period? Mine is quite a 'niche' area of history so I am in a group of one but can you imagine the potential furor over peoples ideas of different Ancient, Medieval armies using morphed figures?
Where Napoleonics are concerned my preference is to stick to a particular campaign. for me it is early Peninsular War. Re. 1866 - my Gotha troops are green painted Prussians.
It might, sure - but then people will argue over the "correct" figures in the "correct" range anyway - that 1807 Wurtemavarin Horse Jager has epaulettes and puttees! He should be in ankle boots and have only half the frogging on the left shoulder! As an extreme example ;) A short disclaimer ("In our opinion..." as opposed to "After extensive research these are 100% correct..." should help any complaints.
I can understand why you wouldn't want to end up with people saying "but the company that sold me the chicken said it worked fine as a kite!" but I bet a little guidance would nudge a few otherwise unlikely sales into clicking the commit button ;)
First lot of Pendraken Miniatures I bought were two army packs for blitzkrieg commander.
I reckon, with the help of forum members knowledge and assistance, that building army packs for specific rules sets (like Baccus6mm, for one, do) may help sell more 10mm products and be a good starter/introduction package for new hobbyists into becoming new customers for Pendraken.
Just an idea.
Thanks for all the posts and apologies for the delay posting in this one. As far as the delays to ranges go, I've just put up a separate thread to explain that a little: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11210.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11210.0.html)
Quote from: Sunray on 01 January 2015, 10:50:28 AM
How did new models such as the much requested Centurion actually sell?
Is the Sherman, Tiger and T34 still best sellers? Is the WW2 market reaching saturation ?
How did the new range like Falklands compare with say Vietnam in respect of sales?
What are the white elephant moulds that sit redundant on the shelf and are seldom requested ?
I initiate this discussion for two reasons; First, I believe Forum faithful can play a part in good market research, but to do so they need to appreciate that requests must have wide appeal otherwise it won't justify the outlay in sculpt and moulds (I assume a mould lasts about 30 casts?). Secondly, whitemetal models last forever. Our 10mm T34s don't wear out. My son is gaming with my 30 year old H&R 6mm. This product durability means that repeat customers must be attracted to new products and ranges . This means speculation and risk by Pendraken. How can we downsize this risk?
Perhaps the way forward is for a coterie of customers to commission a range. Say for sake of argument a number of gamers want a number of specific African Bush war models and figures. Then that group puts up the investment and when a commercially viable number of pre-orders have been acquired, the sculpts are made and the first edition produced. Like a save the church spire appeal a forum chart would tell us when a requested model(s) were viable.
The Centurion is probably the best selling vehicle we've ever released, which surprised us firstly but also provided impetus for us to continue with the modern vehicles expansion.
A mould can be cast 100's of times easily, especially in this scale. We've got some moulds there that have probably done over 1000+ spins over their lifetime and they're still going strong. Bigger figures will rip moulds quicker, but you should still be getting 100+ from them. Some of the 28mm moulds we cast for other companies have done 500+ and are still OK.
We're not a big fan of the customer commissioned route for full ranges, as there's always the grey area of ownership as well as the inevitable debate on what should/shouldn't go into it! The Mongol non-Kickstarter method worked quite nicely and could be used again with a few tweaks. Quite a few people have gone down the Techno 'You Want What Making?' route and successfully produced one-off figures, but we're too busy for anymore of those at the moment unfortunately.
Quote from: pierre the shy on 01 January 2015, 11:19:01 PM
Sure there are other manufacturers who do make much more extensive modern ranges in 10/12mm if I wanted to go that way but got to say that I would stay a loyal PM customer due to the company's OUTSTANDING customer service.
So when ordering I like to see whats on offer (i.e. pics of product on the website) and pay actual postage, not a flat 40 or more % that some places charge. Leon and co are very good at answering any questions and don't mind adding on last minute changes/additions.
Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. More photos on the website is something I'm trying desperately to fix and it will be one of my main focusses through 2015 (as it was through 2013 and 2014 as well!) On the postage, the website currently adds 25% for Rest of the World, which usually works out to be around the right mark. On smaller orders it's a great deal, on larger ones not so much, but we will be looking at adding some 'Maximum' levels to the website so there's only ever so much you'd pay in shipping.
Quote from: Sunray on 02 January 2015, 11:39:17 AM
It would be good to hear Leon's feedback on 2014 best sellers of the new sculpts and popular ranges.
WWI and ACW are the current big sellers among the recent releases. The Mongols are probably the slowest seller of the ranges, something that has surprised me a little as they're such nice figures and it's a fairly comprehensive range. Maybe the lack of specific opposition is the stumbling block there, but that's a different discussion.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 02 January 2015, 12:45:18 AM
That said clearing the production queue and getting stuff on sale quicker would likely help - I was holding out for new Gauls but that project had partly gone elsewhere and partly been replaced by other projects as they haven't appeared yet :( I might be tempted to a few when they eventually appear, but probably not now!
Definitely, and that's something we need to get done asap. The Romans/Gauls have been sitting there for far too long, as have the Falkland's additions and the SCW CTV troops.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 03 January 2015, 10:47:18 PM
"Range X simply isn't complete without figure Y" where Y will sell precisely one figure per set of people playing... Must strike fear into the hearts of figure makers everywhere...
Sometimes! Luckily we are in a fortunate position where we've got a comprehensive catalogue that allows us to add those nice little bits and bobs to the ranges without it harming the business too much.
Quote from: Sunray on 05 January 2015, 12:08:18 PM
2. 10mm is a small market. About one punter for every ten gaming in 15mm.
I spoke to the WSS guys about that at the Crisis show actually. In previous surveys, 10mm was gamed by between 5-8% of wargamers, but in the recent WSS survey this was up to around 12% of gamers. Whether that was down to a change in people's habits or a wider survey group, I don't know, but it's a good percentage either way. We'll continue doing what we can to get those numbers up!
Quote from: GB. on 06 January 2015, 01:19:49 PM
I reckon, with the help of forum members knowledge and assistance, that building army packs for specific rules sets (like Baccus6mm, for one, do) may help sell more 10mm products and be a good starter/introduction package for new hobbyists into becoming new customers for Pendraken.
That's something we've looked at, but the trouble is the huge amount of rulesets out there for any given period and which ones you do armies for? You can guarantee that whatever rules you do packs for, someone will email and ask why you don't do armies for Ruleset X! The sales on the 1000pt Ancient and Medieval packs were never great, even less so since GW dropped WM, so we'll be taking those out of the catalogue soon.
We're hoping to more forward with our own rules instead, so keep your eyes peeled for those!
8)
Thanks Leon
The Centurians may be the biggest seller, but are they still that after you remove FSN's orders!? ;)
Quote from: Leon on 13 January 2015, 05:07:19 AM
We're not a big fan of the customer commissioned route for full ranges, as there's always the grey area of ownership as well as the inevitable debate on what should/shouldn't go into it! The Mongol non-Kickstarter method worked quite nicely and could be used again with a few tweaks. Quite a few people have gone down the Techno 'You Want What Making?' route and successfully produced one-off figures, but we're too busy for anymore of those at the moment unfortunately.
Which is why, as soon as I discussed the Picts, I said I was funding the sculpts, but everything in the range belonged to you guys. Since My idea was to fund a range that might be popular but also to remove a small fraction of your expenses in getting the range out. Since shares in Pendraken are not available, this is my tiny investment beyond the normal cash for lead mountain arrangement.
Now I really hope they sell!
I agree with Lemmey's point on ownership. I too have had figures adjusted/reworked and have always made it clear to Leon that all ownership rights in the model belong to Pendraken. I personally don't think that has to be a large issue.
Chad
Agree entirely. I have no problem with allowing figures I've commissioned to fall to Pendraken ownership. However, there will always be someone.... =) =) =)
Quote from: Leon on 13 January 2015, 05:07:19 AM
That's something we've looked at, but the trouble is the huge amount of rulesets out there for any given period and which ones you do armies for? You can guarantee that whatever rules you do packs for, someone will email and ask why you don't do armies for Ruleset X! The sales on the 1000pt Ancient and Medieval packs were never great, even less so since GW dropped WM, so we'll be taking those out of the catalogue soon.
We're hoping to more forward with our own rules instead, so keep your eyes peeled for those!
Agreed, working to a specific ruleset is like using a Mk One minesweeper...your foot! I think the original suggestion -especially where Mongols are concerned- was only for ideas of compatible figures from other Pendraken ranges that could be used for opposition armies where there is no existing range. More of an information sheet than an in-house, cast in concrete style format.
Quote from: Subedai on 13 January 2015, 03:16:31 PM
Agreed, working to a specific ruleset is like using a Mk One minesweeper...your foot! I think the original suggestion -especially where Mongols are concerned- was only for ideas of compatible figures from other Pendraken ranges that could be used for opposition armies where there is no existing range. More of an information sheet than an in-house, cast in concrete style format.
Having just ordered a Mongol tribal army I fully intend to use my medieval figures I got for Christmas to fight them :)
Quote from: Maenoferren on 13 January 2015, 05:56:51 PM
Having just ordered a Mongol tribal army I fully intend to use my medieval figures I got for Christmas to fight them :)
Mongols are the way forward because the figures are so cosmopolitan in 10mm. At a push you could even use them as bashkirs in a Russian Napoleonic army and just say they have muskets.
Hello Subedai
Quote from: Subedai on 13 January 2015, 07:24:28 PM
Mongols are the way forward because the figures are so cosmopolitan in 10mm. At a push you could even use them as bashkirs in a Russian Napoleonic army and just say they have muskets.
Well I was actually thinking of putting bolt action rifles on the back of the sword armed Mongols for use in Interwar/Pulp :o :o
(http://www.pendraken.co.uk/ProductImages/MON2.JPG)
(http://cdn.historyextra.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/800px_530px/gallery/China%209%20.jpg)
(http://emscat.revues.org/docannexe/image/2444/img-5.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_Ktw53KCcdg/UmchLqkl28I/AAAAAAAAD78/h_hGfsudQ2M/s400/mongol+soldier.jpg)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
I rest my case about their versatility.
Quote from: Chad on 13 January 2015, 10:22:31 AM
I agree with Lemmey's point on ownership. I too have had figures adjusted/reworked and have always made it clear to Leon that all ownership rights in the model belong to Pendraken. I personally don't think that has to be a large issue.
Chad
Me too! I don't want ownership, I want the figures. Unfortunately, in common with all spoilt little brats - I WANTS THEM - NOW! :-[
Mollinary
Quote from: GrumpyOldMan on 13 January 2015, 09:37:50 PM
(http://cdn.historyextra.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/800px_530px/gallery/China%209%20.jpg)
I know the Mongols were great horse-trainers, but how on earth did they get their horses to march in step? :o