I've decided to take the plunge into 10mm SYW. I've ordered a Prussian and Austrian army pack and they are currently in transit (yea me!).
Here's my quandary and where I'm seeking the forum's expert opinions :D - I don't know what rules to use.
Here are my requirements:
1. must be able to recreate the significant battles, not just portions of them.
1.a. As the Prussians tended to be outnumbered in most significant battles, yet they managed to win some of them, they must allow for an able player the ability to win as the outnumbered Prussians.
2. must be able to represent the units with around 5-600 figures per side. If I go the way I did when I collected 15mm SYW, I'll have forces for Prussia, Austria, France, Britain and Russia (plus Hanoverians, Imperial and other minor German states), so keeping each side to around 5-600 would be ideal.
3. must be able to handle multiple players per side so I can run it as a participation game at a convention.
4. number of figures on a stand does not matter - i.e. no combat resolution based on the number of figures in a unit.
I've played Might and Reason and at one time actually enjoyed the game. However I've soured a bit on them as in my gaming group no one wants to fight against the Prussians because of their too many built in advantages. Plus, I'm in a gaming phase where I'm not so keen on whole unit removal.
I have Maurice but haven't played it. It does not look like it can handle multiple (more than 2) players per side. Although I can be convinced otherwise. Plus I may want a few more units on the table than what it recommends.
Koenig Krieg is out because it requires figure counting and probably can't handle large battles.
Black Powder? How does that handle a numerically inferior Prussian army?
Age of Reason? No. Piquet and it's variants? While I want to like the rules I know I can't convince my gaming group to play. Volley & Bayonet? too generic.
My current favorite rules are Altar of Freedom, which is an ACW set of rules. I have put much thought into converting them for SYW. As they focus on a commander's characteristics and the combat mechanism is very simple, I think they only require a few tweaks to fit in the SYW.
With the requirements stated above, what would you recommend and why? If I've turned my nose at your favorite, what would you say to convince me to give them a try?
Thanks,
Shecky
Black Powder is very generic, and we found the movement so fast and so random as to create a strange game ( and we have played loads of Warmaster and Hail Ceaser). BP would need a lot of mods to represent SYW
Maurice - has some interesting stuff, but we stopped playing as the card mechanism forces you to keep playing cards on the main firefight in the battle, and therefore large chunks stand around doing nothing. To be multi player you need more decks of cards and really just end up with parallel games. Probably not best for convention games as has a lot of new mechanisms
Hello Shecky
It's been more than seven years since I've played any 7YW but people I've spoken with recommend Might & Reason (http://sammustafa.com/mr.html (http://sammustafa.com/mr.html)). Copy of QRS here http://sammustafa.com/Resources/MR%20QRS.pdf (http://sammustafa.com/Resources/MR%20QRS.pdf), - usually you can tell from the QRS of any rule set, whether the rule set 'fits' you. It's a brigade scale game with national characteristics.
Of course, you can always follow my cheapskate lead and always check out the Free Wargames Wiki to see what's available. I just had a quick look and there are many 18C rules available:-
http://freewargamesrules.wikia.com/wiki/Category:18th_Century (http://freewargamesrules.wikia.com/wiki/Category:18th_Century)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Greetings
King of the Battlefield might work, though I think you'd have to have a lot of figures for a big SYW battle. Units are a regiment with three stands per unit. They are fast play and designed for club/participation games. In 15mm they are 6 foot figures per 3cm square base but I imagine one can alter the measurements/figure numbers easily as there is no magic to the figure numbers.
There is a yahoo group which has some accounts of games. I've got a copy but not yet played them.
Regards
Edward
If you want to use very large numbers of figures per side (one thousand and upwards), you may like to have a look at these:
http://rulesdepot.net/page63.html (http://rulesdepot.net/page63.html)
We use Pike & Shot with the "and Blenheim Palace" mods (with a couple of tweaks to them!), and that works nicely for WSS era; would probably work fine with BP for SYW if you restrict the movement somewhat (which "&BlenP" does anyway). Couple of the guys have started with "Maurice" and reckon it's really good - so we're going to give them a bash.
They reckon it should cope with a multiplayer game ok - fred, we're happy with needing multiple decks of cards for it, but I'd be interested in more detail of how it works multiplayer if you can, as it's the primary thing we're after :D
Hi Shecky
Have a look at 'Age of Honor'. They come from the 'Fire and Fury' and 'Age of Eagles' stable. Personally my favourite group of wargame rules. They are brigade level and seem to fit your requirements (although combat is based on the number of bases in a brigade, in particular they are great for big multi player games). I base my Pendraken French and Allied armies in two ranks of three infantry figures and 3 cavalry per base (using the standard 15mm size bases in the rules).
Incidentally I have just started to use Altar of Freedom rules for my 6mm ACW and am really enjoying them.
Cheers Paul
You could try the Polemos SYW rules but unfortunately these are not out until early next year (or maybe late this year). We use these in 10mm and 15mm.
QuoteWith the requirements stated above, what would you recommend and why? If I've turned my nose at your favorite, what would you say to convince me to give them a try?
I am involved in these rules so I am not exactly unbiased and so I will avoid comment generally and just answer your specific points. The only thing I will say is that these rules are based on a more modern view of Frederick and his wars (it does the War of Austrian Succession as well) than all the other rules you mention. So Frederick is more 'the Above Average' or 'the Good' than 'the Great'. The Prussian units have some advantages but they are mainly 'average' (although this depends on period of course). They have some advantages that you have to work to take advantage of - i.e. they are good at manoeuvre, etc.
Quote1. must be able to recreate the significant battles, not just portions of them.
The rules have 2 scales and use bases/stands. In the lower scale 1 stand = 1 battalion and in the large scale 1 base = a brigade (2500 inf/1200 cav). So in the larger scale, the one you would use to fight big battles, the full armies (for Frederick's battles) are usually 20 to 30 bases plus generals.
In this larger scale there are no army lists as such. You just use the full historical army and each list is basically a list of the troops at a particular battle.
Quote1.a. As the Prussians tended to be outnumbered in most significant battles, yet they managed to win some of them, they must allow for an able player the ability to win as the outnumbered Prussians.
The modern view is that for most, but not all, of Frederick's battles he is not significantly outnumbered. Frederick often claimed that he was but modern research has disproved this. So for example the wiki page on Leuthen says he has 36,000 vs. 80,000 Austrians & allies - this is based on the old view mainly derived from Frederick himself. But Duffy says it was about 40,000 vs. maybe 50,000 Austrians - this is based on actual research. The Austrian advantage was in low quality troops and light troops. In short the battle is actually very even.
In general you will find that Frederick's battles are quite even although of course there are exceptions, both ways. You should be able to win but you are going to have to work at it - a 'typical' battle would see a slighty better but slightly outnumber Prussian army. The main problem is going to be the Prussian armies not commanded by Frederick. They are often greatly outnumbered and in addition often have rubbish units :(
Quote2. must be able to represent the units with around 5-600 figures per side. If I go the way I did when I collected 15mm SYW, I'll have forces for Prussia, Austria, France, Britain and Russia (plus Hanoverians, Imperial and other minor German states), so keeping each side to around 5-600 would be ideal.
As already mentioned everything is done by bases/stands. You can put whatever you like on a stand but I would expect that in 10mm you will put circa 12-16 infantry/6-8 cavalry/1-2 guns. But as everything is measured by the frontage of the stands you use there is nothing to stop you using bigger or smaller stands with a different number of figures on.
Quote3. must be able to handle multiple players per side so I can run it as a participation game at a convention.
This would be fine. In the big Prussina battles you usually have 3 or 4 generals per side so you could do 1 player per general.
Quote4. number of figures on a stand does not matter - i.e. no combat resolution based on the number of figures in a unit.
No figure removal - a whole stand is removed.
Well having read that lot all I can offer is try something that fits your requirements and see if you like it. You won't like my favourite which is Field of Battle 2nd Edition as it is derived from Piquet.
All this reading has stirred a vague memory of a set called Minden Rose that I used quite a few years ago for 15mm Prussian v Austrian clashes; Worked quite well at the time but not sure it meets all yoru criteria or is even still available.
Also dabbled in the SYW variant of old Shako, which was not so sophisticated but gave a fun game. Again I'm not sure that this would tick all the boxes... :-\
Hi Shecky,
I'll try and post a second time, after the system swallowed my previous effort. Volley and Bayonet is worth a look. The original version had mods for a number of periods, including SYW, and Frank Chadwick produced a couple of useful scenario booklets for it. There is also an excellent Vollay and Bayonet website run by New Zealander Keith McNelly. It is excellent, and if you are interested, it is a good place to start.
Cheers,
Mollinary
Last I heard Minden Rose was available as a free down load. 4 - 6 bases per unit and also includes some large battle scenarios, eg Zorndorf. First rules I used with my 10s, based on one inch square, apart from artillery. They suffer from overly strong Prussians who can do cartwheels whilst the others plod around with cement overshoes. Nearly gave up on SYW as at the time as I only had an Austrian army and didn't win a single battle against the Prussians. FOB2 are much more even handed.
Quote from: mollinary on 14 October 2014, 11:59:49 AM
Hi Shecky,
I'll try and post a second time, after the system swallowed my previous effort. Volley and Bayonet is worth a look. The original version had mods for a number of periods, including SYW, and Frank Chadwick produced a couple of useful scenario booklets for it. There is also an excellent Vollay and Bayonet website run by New Zealander Keith McNelly. It is excellent, and if you are interested, it is a good place to start.
Cheers,
Mollinary
Seconded, the various mods do give a different feel to the games.
Thanks for the replies so far. I'll try to find out more about the V&B mods. I haven't played V&B in a long time but I remember it being a bit too generic with little command and control.
Quote from: Shecky on 15 October 2014, 12:21:13 AM
Thanks for the replies so far. I'll try to find out more about the V&B mods. I haven't played V&B in a long time but I remember it being a bit too generic with little command and control.
There is little command and control, except the need to be in command range, in V&B but that can create plenty of challenges if there aren't many commanders.
Disorder and exhaustion also limit what troops can do.
hi shecky
i would go with black powder and it 18th century supplement the last argument of kings which covers the syw.
take care
andy
Except for a few glaring errors, such as Austrians at Bleinheim...
To be fair to Warlord they did almost immediately release the errata to say "whooooops, ignore that, here's what we should have printed, sorreeee!".
I'd go for Black Powder. Just getting to grips with them myself and had some quite enjoyable games in 10mm. To make things more interesting, you can add combat values to the various nationalities as well, the purchase of the supplement is recommended.
Oy, Pixie, at least give me an attribution
http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/war-of-spanish-succession-for-black-powder/ (http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/war-of-spanish-succession-for-black-powder/)
Also we have amended the 'Broken Brigade' rule
http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/black-powder-broken-brigades/ (http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/black-powder-broken-brigades/)
I have considered modifying the Command roll, so you only get 3 moves if you roll half or under of the target value.
With BP you can modify all the stats for units, so units can have higher stamina or morale, making the units harder to 'shake' (Morale acts as a saving throw, Stamina is the number of hits needed to make the unit 'shaken'.
Its figure number independent. In the rules as written a 28mm figure unit is a line about 240mm long (ish) and measurements in inches. We just measure in cm, and use lines of 120mm for 10mm. Up to you how you base, as long as the line is 'about' the right length.
@Last Hussar, sorry if that looked like any misattribution! I'd assumed anyone frequenting here would know whose they were :D They work well :) We can't resist some tweaking, but then what gamers can't...
We've tweaked, but I can't remember how. :(
Well the little bundle of SYW joy arrived this afternoon!
Now I have to decide on which rules to use. I'll give myself a day or two to make the decision while I clean the figures.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 15 October 2014, 10:53:45 PM
We've tweaked, but I can't remember how. :(
We allow cavalry to contact formed, ordered infantry frontally BUT the infantry counts as having a Pike Company, so no "victory bonuses" to the Cav, and double dice for the infantry. It's *sometimes* worth a try, but...
Err... and we monkied with some of the factors a bit, and added a few more of the special characteristics to a few of the units here and there (eg I made the Vieux Regts. Steady IIRC) and we give Platoon Fire infantry a second "first fire dice" so they get two turns of improved shooting instead of one (as I/we think that whilst Platoon Fire simply wasn't as awesomesauce amazeballs as some sources claim, it a/ did have an effect, and I/we think it probably helped retain fire discipline a little longer and b/ we want to distinguish a little between armies, in the same way your Cold Steel vs Shot cavalry amendment does!).
Understand completely are the differentiating armies. Wouldn't do it personally -a turn is about 10 minutes, and they already get 5 dice. May I suggest instead of 2x first fire,allow unit that does nothing else, and does not come under fire etc for the previous enemy turn to attempt to regain its first fire. It can't be shaken or other wise disordered, and possibly no enemy within single moved (charge) distance,then passes an order.
I toyed briefly with this, didn't really flesh it out as I didn't want to overcomplicate the basic ideas.
We originally gave platoon firing units an extra dice in firefights against no -pf's. Which was too much - it was basically always an extra dice and was massively better. Then We tried two dice of first fire on the same turn. Better but seemed to give such a big "lead" the French never recovered. We've currently settled on two turns of first fire which seems right - it's painful but if you hang on you get back to parity and no one evaporates straight away (often).
I agree on the turn times - I'd think they're actually longer, tbh, more 15-20mins - but - we wanted a minimal book keeping, easy to use difference that didn't end up overwhelming or useless, and so far...
* as ever, ask me again after the next game I lose ;)
The issue of platoon firing is a vexed one. If you think about it rationally, there is no reason why 500 men in three ranks firing by platoons should produce a greater volume of fire than 500 men in four ranks firing volleys. The main advantages of the platoon firing are 1) the longer unit frontage (the fourth rank of the volley-firing unit has difficulty getting its aim in), and 2) the flexibility of the platoon firing system and the ability to always have a platoon in reserve. So, should the platoon-firing unit have that great an advantage?
I would have thought that the majority of the major combatants in the SYW would have adopted platoon firing, though. The issue is more of a problem in the WSS.
Hertsblue, sorry - you're right, I think it's common in the SYW (along with metal ram rods etc etc), but we've veered seamlessly into WSS territory, which is my fault! We were looking for a way to show it had some effect, but not an overwhelming one, which is either a great compromise or a terrible fence sitting non-solution that reflects neither camp ;)
A forum thread getting derailed? No one saw that coming.
The advantage of platoon over rank is that while fewer people are firing at any one time, there is always someone firing. I believe the fire rate WSS was 1 per minute. Equally spaced ranks would fire every 15 seconds. With platoon it was one of 16 companies - so one every 4 seconds. Additionally the rank 1/4 is evenly spread across the front, where as Platoon is 1/16 in a block, so I'm guessing does proportionately more damage due to the narrow arc gives less misses.
Because you don't fight (you can of course) armies of different periods against each other, they are equal so their stats are equal. But would they be doing less damage in the WSS so it takes longer to get to that break point? At the moment it takes the same number of shots (statistically/on average) to shake a WSS, SYW, AWI, Napoleonic, Crimean and ACW unit.
I worked out the 10 minutes a turn by reference to unit frontages - 1 Move Unit equals about 10 yards. This works with the 'close range' of 6. Because we use cm, we call 1mm = 1 pace, so we can give more atmospheric orders -"The Prussians will advance 200 paces".
Because I'm a maths nerd, I worked out the average move for an average unit with Average (8) leadership (from memory I think it came out at about 1.6), doing it for Road Column and Field line etc. 10 mins makes a field line move at about 1 mph in battle - which seemed reasonable (12 Move Units x 1.6 x 10 yards x 6 moves/hour)
Quote from: Last Hussar on 17 October 2014, 05:37:26 PM
I worked out the 10 minutes a turn by reference to unit frontages - 1 Move Unit equals about 10 yards. This works with the 'close range' of 6. Because we use cm, we call 1mm = 1 pace, so we can give more atmospheric orders -"The Prussians will advance 200 paces".
atmospheric orders, are very important. We did something similar with General Quarters and changed the ground scale from 4" per 1000 yards to 1cm per 200 yards so that the conversion was easier. Much better to think of your opponents ships at 15,000 yards (75cm) than 60"
Heh, I always try to be atmospheric - that's why I named my units and commanders :D d'Fayette Division will advance, Schuyler and Etiennes battalions to give fire, whilst Picardy and Lombardy close a la baionette!
Bit more of a scientific approach than my "feels about 15 mins" approach to turn length ;)
On the platoon fire - our approach gives both otherwise equal infantry 4 dice on first turn of fire, then the platoon firers get four dice versus three on turn two, then both are at three dice. It's a minor thing, and I agree fire discipline probably broke down quicker than ten minutes, but it's less "blasty" than an extra dice on the first turn (I've found :)).
I would suggest you find a copy of "The Military Experience in the Age of Reason" and read the section on The Firefight. It is very illuminating.
Chad
Quote from: Chad on 17 October 2014, 07:54:28 PM
I would suggest you find a copy of "The Military Experience in the Age of Reason" and read the section on The Firefight. It is very illuminating.
Chad
Good call, Chad! Like all of Professor Duffy's work that I have read, it is well written and incredibly informative. :D
Mollinary
We need a "like" button!
I'd be happy to not give any advantage to platoon firing, but then I don't play armies generally considered to have made great play with it ;)
I have, "Military Experience in the Age of Reason", but I haven't read it in over 20 years. I'll have to take it off the shelf and give it another look.
Duffy and Savory got me into the period oh so many years ago. At one time I had a signed copy of "His Britannic Majesty's Army...", hard back, with dust jacket and a letter from savory indicating why he wrote the book.