Working on some Italian Wars lists for Pike & Shotte - and would welcome any thoughts / comments / feedback on these from those amongst us who know way more than me about this (my knowledge is nascent at best...and with limited i'net access, I'm struggling to get decent intel...). I'm after feedback on the codes really for suitability...rather than my force lists (which are based mostly on what I think will be funky on-table)
Imperialist
Commander
2 x Infantry Commanders
1 x Cavalry Commander
2 x LAN6 Foot command (use some for foot below)
1 x ELM24a General, std bearer, drummer
1 x ELM24b General, std bearer, piper
1 x ELM38 Mounted generals
1 x ELM39 Mounted kings
(note: I'll use these codes for both sets of command figures, Imperialist & French)
Horse
2 x Gendarmes
2 x ELM1 Mounted knights, barded horses
Foot
2 x Pikemen
2 x ER10 European pikemen
2 x Halberdiers (Landsknechts)
2 x LAN2 Halberdiers
4 x Landsknecht Pikemen
4 x LAN1 Pikemen
1 x LAN3 Two handed swordsmen
2 x Landsknecht Arquebusiers
2 x LAN5 Arquebusier
Ordnance
4 x Medium Guns
2 x LAN7 Medium guns & crew
French
Commander
2 x Infantry Commanders
1 (2?) Cavalry Commanders
Horse
2 x Gendarmes d'Ordonnance
2 x ELM1 Mounted knights, barded horses
2 x Mounted Crossbow
2 x ELM23 Mounted crossbow
Foot
4 x Swiss Pikemen
4 x ER10 European pikemen
2 x Swiss Arquebusiers
2 x ER11 Arquebusier
Ordnance
2 x Medium Guns (from above, need different crew figures???)
I'd love to have some Landsknecht Organ Guns too - anyone got any Pike & Shotte thoughts on those?!
For Italian Wars gendarmes I would definitely go with the medieval Pendraken figures rather than the gendarme listed in the Renaissance section as the figure is too late for the Italian Wars. It's rather late at the moment so I will post some comments on the various codes tomorrow. Cheers, Andy.
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 26 August 2014, 10:32:03 PM
For Italian Wars gendarmes I would definitely go with the medieval Pendraken figures rather than the gendarme listed in the Renaissance section as the figure is too late for the Italian Wars. It's rather late at the moment so I will post some comments on the various codes tomorrow. Cheers, Andy.
Cool, thanks Andy 8) :) 8)
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 26 August 2014, 10:32:03 PM
For Italian Wars gendarmes I would definitely go with the medieval Pendraken figures rather than the gendarme listed in the Renaissance section as the figure is too late for the Italian Wars. It's rather late at the moment so I will post some comments on the various codes tomorrow. Cheers, Andy.
But they're carrying shields, aren't they?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 27 August 2014, 12:13:14 AM
But they're carrying shields, aren't they?
I presumed he meant these
(http://www.pendraken.co.uk/ProductImages/ELM1.JPG)
in which case, no they're not.
Ah, yes, I'm thinking of the fantasy range, in my muddle-headed way.
Ok Nik, here's my take on the less obvious codes:
ELM 9 - very heavily armoured pike. I would use for Swiss and other nations front ranks, but not for Landsknechts. Also see my ER comments later.
ELM 10 - French and Italian crossbow.
ELM 11 - Swiss and Italian arquebusiers
ELM 15 - excellent light gun
ELM 16 - non-Landsknecht organ gun
ELM 23 - Italian and French mounted crossbow
ELM28 - best figure going for any nation unbarded gendarme
ERI - Italian and Spanish heavy infantry halberd
ER5 - front rank Italian and Spanish pike
ER7 - medium gun with non-Landsknecht crew
ER8 - ditto heavy gun
ER9 - front rank Italian and spanish with longer pike
ER 10 - rear rank Italian and Spanish pike and all French pike
ER 11 - Spanish arquebus
EL 10 - Stradiot
Unfortunately I can't find a proxy for mounted arquebusiers or Spanish Genitors.
Cool - thanks for that, much appreciated; I'll have a tinker with a few codes then 8)
Anyone got ideas on Organ Gun rules? It'd be rude not to have a few... :d
Quote from: nikharwood on 27 August 2014, 08:57:41 AM
Anyone got ideas on Organ Gun rules? It'd be rude not to have a few... :d
They explode when fired unless you hum "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" as you roll the dice?
Quote from: Ithoriel on 27 August 2014, 09:00:39 AM
They explode when fired unless you hum "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" as you roll the dice?
That wins :D
You can also add ER12 Demi Lancer in the mix as well for unarmoured gendarmes
Spanish/Imperialist had less HC of the gendarme type than the French and less with barded horses.
for Genites/Genitors you could add a heart shaped shield from card to a variety of light horse including ELM20 Irish Horse, by using a hole punch trim the sides a little and a little v in the top and bend it lengthways.
Both sides had a lot of Italian allies too, so that would add a lot of colour as well
Ian
As for organ guns in P&S I use them as light guns with 1/1/3 shooting stats allowing them closing fire
Excellent - thanks, S 8)
I grabbed a copy of what I ordered for my "bath tub" Italian Wars (also using P&S)
Gives me -
Imperialist
4*16 figure pike blocks
2*5 figure hand gun blocks
4*4 figure unbarded men at arms blocks
1*8 figure halbardier
2*guns
French
3*16 figure pike
2*4 figure barded Gendarmes
2*4 figure unbarded "mounted archers" (I strip the fire dice from them, as by this point I think they've promoted themselves to shock cavalry!)
1*gun
Packs I used were -
1 ELM9, £3.75 each, total cost £3.75
1 LAN1, £3.75 each, total cost £3.75
1 ER10, £3.75 each, total cost £3.75
1 GR141, £1.25 each, total cost £1.25
2 FME4, £1.13 each, total cost £2.26
1 FME6, £1.13 each, total cost £1.13
1 FME11, £1.13 each, total cost £1.13
Mixed the pikes up across the bases and looks pretty good. The Fantasy Human range is handy - there's smaller packs to grab the figures you need to round out things :)
Not all the Imperialist stands would be on table at the same time, but they have a numerical advantage and a combined advantage over the French who are just quite a bit better (Swiss pike instead of Landsknechts, barded Gendarmes over unbarded men at arms).
That's very useful information, as I've always been tempted by this due to it's colourful nature. However I really must focus on my current lead mountain... :(.
Here's a few thoughts:
The so-called "organ guns" were used by Pedro Navarro at Ravenna and were not particularly effective. I suspect that they were probably very short-ranged. That would make their crews vulnerable to arquebusiers. They would also be much slower to reload than conventional light guns.
Not sure the Spanish employed the halberd much. Gonsalvo de Cordoba preferred sword-and-buckler men for breaking up enemy pike-blocks - which is what the Swiss used halberdiers for. Both sides went over to using arquebusiers for the job as the war progressed.
As well as the gendarmes d'ordonnance the French also had the so-called "chevaux legères" which started out as the squires and retinues of the gendarmes. They were hardly less well-armoured than the gendarmes themselves.
The French clung to the crossbow for a lot longer than the other nations. Conversely, the Spanish were quick to adopt the arquebus.
Hope this helps.
This is all really helpful - thanks, all 8)
My halbards were a bit extra as I fancied a pack, more of a hangover from Warmaster I think than serious history! In French service the Swiss seem to have used relatively few short hafts (or anything else!), so I guess as the French just bought MOAR PIKES PLIS! as they were the "best", despite the Swiss being well into "combined arms" when fighting on their home turf.
forget organ guns you want a couple of these (though a bit earlier than the period you are looking at) -
"At Castagnaro in 1387 the Veronese had three huge battle-wagons with three decks apiece and twelve bombardelle - gun-barrels fitted to the side of each deck - so that every wagon carried 144 gun-barrels, each barrel capable of firing a stone the size of a hen's egg. There were three men to each wagon, two of whom could take it in turns to fire salvoes of twelve per wagon, while a third applied the brake or wielded a hatchet. Each wagon required four large warhorses to drag it along and, since the animals were all fitted with protective harness, they were like a type of armoured car."
They never got deployed in the battle and Hawkwood's forces captured them afterwards. But always thought they would be great fun to model and try out.
Would an empire warmaster army be a good start for the period ?
Yes it would but for two things:
a) there are no empire pikemen (but the Kallistra WoR pike might do at a pinch);
b) the beautifully sculpted gendarmes have shields and they are an absolute pig to try and remove.
I have an empire army that I'm currently rebasing in 40 x 40 mm for Mayhem.
I'd like to find an historical use to them too.
Quote from: Matt of Munslow on 27 August 2014, 07:26:07 PM
forget organ guns you want a couple of these (though a bit earlier than the period you are looking at) -
"At Castagnaro in 1387 the Veronese had three huge battle-wagons with three decks apiece and twelve bombardelle - gun-barrels fitted to the side of each deck - so that every wagon carried 144 gun-barrels, each barrel capable of firing a stone the size of a hen's egg. There were three men to each wagon, two of whom could take it in turns to fire salvoes of twelve per wagon, while a third applied the brake or wielded a hatchet. Each wagon required four large warhorses to drag it along and, since the animals were all fitted with protective harness, they were like a type of armoured car."
They never got deployed in the battle and Hawkwood's forces captured them afterwards. But always thought they would be great fun to model and try out.
Now,
that sounds fun - and they come in threes :d 8) :d
Yann, if you are adding pikes to WM Empire, then you should look at the Kickstarter that has just been done by Dave of Warmonger to produce zweihanders and pikes in a style that fits with Empire. You can also use Pendraken, I used a mix of LAN and ER codes.
If you want an idea of troop-types these might help. They're all 15mm.
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/Wargames%20and%20Modelling/Renaissance/Italian%20Wars/SwissPikes.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/Wargames%20and%20Modelling/Renaissance/Italian%20Wars/FrenchGendarmerie.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/Wargames%20and%20Modelling/Renaissance/Culverin.jpg)
See, that's what attracted me to the period - it's just so colourful!
For Mtd Arquebus i would try to adapt ELM 23 - Italian and French mounted crossbow/
Cut the bow arms off of the crossbow and either just give it a paint job to show the barrel or add a wire barrel
I really should have thought of that!! The above 15s look really good. My 15s are based up for Impetus and give a terrific game.
That's why I am trying to resist 10mm Italian Wars as I also have it in 15mm and 6mm already
Oh my god! I have 28mm, 15mm, 10mm, 6mm and 2mm. Only period I have anything like that.
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 28 August 2014, 10:41:24 AM
I really should have thought of that!! The above 15s look really good. My 15s are based up for Impetus and give a terrific game.
I keep looking at Impetus and keep getting put off by the strange designations (in English at any rate). And my pet hate of movment expressed in base widths- It just adds another calculation.
Do they work for Italian wars?
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 28 August 2014, 02:11:47 PM
I keep looking at Impetus and keep getting put off by the strange designations (in English at any rate). And my pet hate of movment expressed in base widths- It just adds another calculation.
Do they work for Italian wars?
I only play Basic Impetus and you get used to the terms fairly quickly, not sure about full Impetus but the basic version uses ordinary measurements not base widths depending on the figure scale
We normally use Impetus for Italian Wars in one of my main groups (in 15mm, looks *very* impressive!). Plays really, really well (but then, we like Impetus anyway and its become our de facto rules set for anything pre pike & "lots of shot as opposed to early handguns" ;)
Right I have downloaded the free set and will give it a try.
Trouble is if I like it the Set with the 3 exra listys I need is going to set me back a few bob
I have tried both and still prefer the basic set so I can get a battle done in an evening
As mentioned on a previous thread I now play Simple Impetus, which is an upgrade of Basic Impetus. Gives a really good game in one to two hours. Also play main Impetus. Movement is definitely in inches or cms (depending on scale). Still think it is one of the best sets for playing Ancient, Mdieval and Early Renaissance. Main rules are now available on Wargames Vault as a download. Will be demoing a 28mm Italian Wars Impetus game at Battleground.
Just a little question :
Italians wars span from 1494 to 1559.
What lists do you use ?
I've downloaded the free version of Impetus, and had a read through, but really struggled to understand it
As with several sets of rules that have been through a few versions the web site seems to focus on the updates and tweaks and doesn't do a getting started bit. While this is understandable for the writers and long time users of the rules, it makes it hard for newbies.
Also the abbreviations are quite hard to grasp having kept the original Italian letters.
I don't know if I am missing out on some good rules, as lots of people seem to like them.
Barbarian - my list above is a very generic early-ish one intended for "feel" more than direct accuracy :D
Impetus - we've used the ones out of the source book for Italian Wars. First game we played was amusing, old style Italian city state list versus gendarmes and Swiss pike. It showed in no uncertain terms why the pike, gun and shock horse knocked out the competing army set ups :D
Basic Impetus - Fred, I agree - if I hadn't actually played a couple of games so I knew what I was doing (*insert laughter here) I'd be a bit put off by the basic rules as it's kind of "DBA without explanations". Try popping a couple of units down and having a quick bash - it makes sense in use! Although VD makes us snigger like teenagers in Biology class every time, even now :D
The period generally classed as the Italian Wars really wound up with the Battle of Pavia in 1525. Yes, officially the wars dragged on to 1559, but beyond 1530 the Spanish started to use the tercio rather than the colunella, cavalry started to use pistols, the Landsknechts and Swiss were not as effective as they had been and troops began to look much more like those associated with Elizabethan times. Yes Fred, you are missing out on a really good set of rules, but it is best to start with Basic Impetus and work from there.
Pavia is about as late as where I'm interested in with my set up, so it's kind of a caricature of the stereotype of French gendarme/Swiss pike versus German men at arms and Landsknecht pike & hand gun :D
Agree, but you have to use Spaniards too!
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 29 August 2014, 07:30:16 AM
As mentioned on a previous thread I now play Simple Impetus, which is an upgrade of Basic Impetus. Gives a really good game in one to two hours. Also play main Impetus. Movement is definitely in inches or cms (depending on scale). Still think it is one of the best sets for playing Ancient, Mdieval and Early Renaissance. Main rules are now available on Wargames Vault as a download. Will be demoing a 28mm Italian Wars Impetus game at Battleground.
What is Simple Impetus?....Is it online?..Haven't heard of it before
Simple Impetus is a variant devised by one of my regular opponents. It is the same as Basic Impetus except:
1. Massed troops - they form a double depth unit and receive a depth bonus, even if not fresh. The VDU is for the whole unit and once the VDU reaches zero the whole double unit is removed.
2.Command Control - Moving troops around the battlefield is restricted by this rule. Three types of command depending on the army:
a) A professional army mainly of full time troops and officers, eg. Roman early Imperial, Italian Wars Spanish. these have no restriction on command.
b) A social army where command is determined by social status rather than ability, eg. Italian Wars French, Normans, Greeks. A social army can only move 4 units or groups.
c) A charismatic army where command is dependent on the personal presence of the leader, eg. Celtic warband, viking raiders (but not Alexander's Macedonians - that would be classed as professional). A charismatic army can only move two units or groups.
This does not affect shooting or continuing melees.
3. Mandated Charges - Fresh impetuous units, eg. French knights, Celtic infantry, that are within a move of the enemy and qualify for impetus bonus must charge. Foot need not charge mounted troops and only FL must charge in difficult terrain.
4. Evade - S, LC, or GCL evade from slower troops. To evade a LC or S unit, upon contact, moves backwards a full movement and becomes disordered. The contacting unit, if impetuous, must continue moving up to its maximum allowed move; other units may halt at the point of contact.
5. Massed Bow - receive a +2 dice bonus when firing.
In the firing table there are no longer A or B classes of Longbow, shortbow, composite bow crossbow, handgun, arquebus or musket. The no. of dice for 10u, 20u and 50u are as follows:
Longbow 2 1 No
Shortbow 1 0 No
Comp. bow 2 -1 No
Crossbow 2 0 No
Handgun 0 No No
Arquebus 2 -1 No
Hope that's of some help. We find it adds a little more to the game and makes shooting a lot more straightforward.
Cheers
I will have a look and and have a quick solo go with it
Quick question - 1. Massed troops - they form a double depth unit and receive a depth bonus, even if not fresh. The VDU is for the whole unit and once the VDU reaches zero the whole double unit is removed.
Does that mean the Massed unit get "double" VDU (eg a double sized massed unit of Swiss Pike get VDU 10) or do they get a single VDU 5, but always keep their Impetus bonus and their 2/4 extra dice for depth?
The latter assumption is the correct one. The problem we were having was that the deep unit took losses from the back base, so the front base always had its impetus for a very long time. Our system gives the depth and the longer lasting impetus but not the overly long life of the unit.
Cheers, makes sense now!
Quote from: toxicpixie on 29 August 2014, 10:02:06 AM
Pavia is about as late as where I'm interested in with my set up, so it's kind of a caricature of the stereotype of French gendarme/Swiss pike versus German men at arms and Landsknecht pike & hand gun :D
Quote from: FierceKitty on 29 August 2014, 12:37:26 PM
Agree, but you have to use Spaniards too!
I *think* this is what I'm after. I was sure, but then I started this thread :-\ :D
I've done two of my French pike blocks as "Swiss"-ish, and one in black and red as the Black Band especially for that ;)
I kind of assume that at least some of the figures on the Imperialist bases are Spanish ;) Or possibly entire units!
The Spanish formed a considerable part of the Imperial army during the Italian Wars. Bear in mind that Charles V, in addition to being Holy Roman Emperor, was also King of Spain (and spent most of his time in Spain). During the French invasion of Naples (then a Spanish dependency) the defending army was entirely Spanish. At Ravenna (1512) there were at least 7 regiments of Spanish infantry in the army of the Holy League. Even as late as Ceresole (1544) there were still Spanish contingents in the Imperalist army. And, yes, there were certainly entire units of them.
Incidentally, as far as painting is concerned, the Spanish believed that every man should be allowed to wear whatever he liked. The thinking was - how could you expect a man to fight well unless he was comfortable? So there would be no uniformity at all in the Spanish ranks!
True, but I must admit I couldn't resist making my Spaniards rather more uniform than everyone else. I'll answer for my sins on Judgment Day.
Quote from: Hertsblue on 30 August 2014, 09:49:29 AM
The Spanish formed a considerable part of the Imperial army during the Italian Wars. Bear in mind that Charles V, in addition to being Holy Roman Emperor, was also King of Spain (and spent most of his time in Spain). During the French invasion of Naples (then a Spanish dependency) the defending army was entirely Spanish. At Ravenna (1512) there were at least 7 regiments of Spanish infantry in the army of the Holy League. Even as late as Ceresole (1544) there were still Spanish contingents in the Imperalist army. And, yes, there were certainly entire units of them.
Incidentally, as far as painting is concerned, the Spanish believed that every man should be allowed to wear whatever he liked. The thinking was - how could you expect a man to fight well unless he was comfortable? So there would be no uniformity at all in the Spanish ranks!
Combined with the exemption from sumptuary laws due to their "short and miserable" lives for the actual "German" landsknechtes, Imperialist formations must have been a riot of colour and cloth. At least until a week in the field turns everything the same shade of mud and dust ;)
I wonder. If your gummed velvet doublet slashed over shot silk and trimmed with hamster-fur were the one smart thing that you owned, you might spend some time washing it, I suspect. Possibly more than you spent washing yourself (such that the given value of "you" is a 16th-century Landsknecht, not a member of this forum, unless perhaps of a Cambrian and thus subterranean persuasion).
Just my three florins' worth.
I suspect that washing hamster fur might be counter-productive. :D
I suppose all those washer women & seamstresses in the camp followers must be goo for something besides clogging the roads! *innocent whistle
They'd be goo only following a direct hit by French artillery.
Quote from: fred 12df on 29 August 2014, 07:53:01 AM
Also the abbreviations are quite hard to grasp having kept the original Italian letters.
I don't know if I am missing out on some good rules, as lots of people seem to like them.
I have now read them a couple of times and think I have a grasp of them :-\. But I have already decided to re type them with more English abbreviations. This will be about project 23 in my list so may be a while . When done I will make them avaliable.
There are a series of tutorials on You Tube which provide an excellent introduction to Basic Impetus. They are by Kurtus Brown and can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDXX1Xs-oSbXFqt9lAd706sPcC0id9QY0 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDXX1Xs-oSbXFqt9lAd706sPcC0id9QY0)
Ian
Having a big (28mm) French v Spanish Italian Wars Impetus game tomorrow. Will try to remember to take some photos.
Rokcing stuff, DP!
I have a 10mm Fantasy Impetus this evening, must remember the same :)