Gentlemen and Ladies of the Forum.
As a love of mind games and thought exercises, and in light of my recent reading, I pose to you a dilemma in the same vein as the Prisoner's Dilemma and the Smoking support the NHS problem.
1) Wargames figures of Greek Hoplites are often depicted using the spear raised above the head.
2) New evidence suggests strongly that the Hoplite used the spear in a couched posture.
3) Techno has been asked to sculpt a new range of Hoplites.
If he sculpts the overhead pose, it's historically inaccurate, which will upset his sensibilities, but is now somewhat of a convention.
If he sculpts the couched pose it is likely to be unpopular, except by those who have read the same book.
What does he do? :-\ (No, he can't do both.)
He sculpts both, then it's Leon's dilemma which to cast....
Separate right arm to allow posing as per side of argument! :P
X_X X_X X_X X_X X_X
GO AWAY !!....ALL OF YOU !!...STOP CONFUSING ME !!
I've got other stuff to clear first, anyway ! :P
Cheers - Phil (I've gotta headache !)
Given that the primary sources support the overarm pose and that, unlike the creators of some of the primary source material, the author of the underarm usage theorem has never fought in a hoplite battle line, I suggest we stick with the overarm pose and burn the author of the alternate theory on a pyre of his own works.
How's that for a solution? :)
It could be viewed as a touch harsh. :d
It may only bring his views to a wider audience as well.
You realize that you'll have to remind me about this when I get around to making them.
I'll have forgotten this way before then.
.......What are we talking about ?
Cheers - ....Erm, No.....don't tell me....I'll remember in a minute.
QuoteGiven that the primary sources support the overarm pose and that, unlike the creators of some of the primary source material, the author of the underarm usage theorem has never fought in a hoplite battle line, I suggest we stick with the overarm pose and burn the author of the alternate theory on a pyre of his own works.
Yes please ;D
Over arm pose please as per the Chigi vase.
Don't see how men in an overlapping shield phalanx can attack underarm unless they want to hurt peoples ankles.
Do both and then units can have the front rank couched and the rear ranks overarm. Simples, innit!!
1. Techno decides not to inform the artist who painted this vase that he was historically inaccurate.
(http://www.timetrips.co.uk/gw-hoplites-fighting.jpg)
http://www.timetrips.co.uk/gw%20hoplite_tactics.htm (http://www.timetrips.co.uk/gw%20hoplite_tactics.htm)
Techno simply avoids these problems by sculpting the new range of WWII Poles :D. Simples.
Similar indecision on poses for Aztec warriors has led to that range being shelved indefinitely ;).
(http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/31288/hoplite_pilos.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Pisuzru.png)
The book is very persuasive, but you're all ignoring the problem.
Does Techno make what he understands to be historically accurate figures, or does he pander to convention, and reinforce the inaccurate, but widely held belief?
On the one hand, his historically accurate figures may be a bit odd to closed minded gamers (*ahem*), but on the other hand he may be hailed in the future as the man who brought about a change in understanding with his innovative and exciting range.
Quote from: fsn on 10 July 2014, 08:34:31 PM
(http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/31288/hoplite_pilos.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Pisuzru.png)
The book is very persuasive, but you're all ignoring the problem.
Does Techno make what he understands to be historically accurate figures, or does he pander to convention, and reinforce the inaccurate, but widely held belief?
On the one hand, his historically accurate figures may be a bit odd to closed minded gamers (*ahem*), but on the other hand he may be hailed in the future as the man who brought about a change in understanding with his innovative and exciting range.
On the other hand he could ignore a no hoper trying to make a name for himself by attacking a clearly understood and practically effective consensus, and continue making figures that reflect contemporary descriptions. No choice really, we are obviously going to get a new range of underhand wusses! :-*
Mollinary
Pose them "at rest" with spears grounded and vertical :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 July 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Pose them "at rest" with spears grounded and vertical :)
Ithoriel,
Have you ever been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize? :D
Mollinary
Techno doesn't do straight line stuff, and certainly won't be making any Cold war era helicopters! :P
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHSktoy0vJ6LTWT5KPdXi7lDjFw_jbh5x7m7hGadaY2cH6mh8Iig)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 July 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Pose them "at rest" with spears grounded and vertical :)
This is good.
Do this.
Quote from: OldenBUA on 10 July 2014, 09:35:16 PM
Techno doesn't do straight line stuff, and certainly won't be making any Cold war era helicopters! :P
That's OK, not many straight lines on a Mil Mi-2 :)
Given those vases show naked men, it's not the spears I'm worried about Phil having to sculpt.
Quote from: Steve J on 10 July 2014, 08:16:27 PM
Techno simply avoids these problems by sculpting the new range of WWII Poles :D. Simples.
Similar indecision on poses for Aztec warriors has led to that range's being shelved indefinitely ;).
Screw the whale - save the gerund!
That aside, there is little room for indecision there, since the Mexica sword had to be used in wide, sweeping blows. But Poles, now, are tricky. Should they be trying to jab a lance into the tank's treads (underarm) or thrust it down the gun-barrel (overarm)?
Getting serious, and feeling guilty about even pretending to believe that stupid story about Polish cavalry, I regret to say I'm with Ithoriel on this one. Techno trusts the overwhelming body of contemporary evidence and the balance of practical possibility, and does not go for the underarm thrust. He sculpts them with vertical weapons, thrusting overarm, or advancing with spear sloped forward. Or he gets the hose turned on him.
I'll get some therapy this weekend to cope with my guilty feelings about agreeing with my nemesis.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 July 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Pose them "at rest" with spears grounded and vertical :)
I had a similar thought, but that is a pretty static pose :(
Ever been a soldier? Static poses are very attractive if you're carrying heavy equipment. :)
Seconded
Quote from: OldenBUA on 10 July 2014, 09:35:16 PM
Techno doesn't do straight line stuff, and certainly won't be making any Cold war era helicopters! :P
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHSktoy0vJ6LTWT5KPdXi7lDjFw_jbh5x7m7hGadaY2cH6mh8Iig)
Nicely played sir!
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 July 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Pose them "at rest" with spears grounded and vertical :)
Genius !Much easier to make......Much easier to cast. :)
Anyway......WHEN I get around to making these, my answer will be to ask Leon what HE wants me to make.
Then when the arguments start, I'll blame him. :P ;D ;D.
Don't think I'll be allowed to make them with naughty bits....and how did that helicopter get in on the act ?
Cheers - Phil. ;)
Many of my Gaulish exhibitionists are pretty explicit figures.
Quote from: Techno on 11 July 2014, 06:47:06 AM
Don't think I'll be allowed to make them with naughty bits...
Sculpt them laughing and pointing at Persians in trousers.
Under shield, over shield, at rest, grounded: being a hoplite is such fun.
From a purely wargaming point of view, vertical spears would be much more practical. At the club I used to see players with their bases several inches apart due to the 45 degree posed spears preventing the opposing armies from meeting. They never came up with a satisfactory resolution to this problem...
That's more of a problem with pikemen, isn't it?
Quote from: Last Hussar on 11 July 2014, 12:18:19 AM
Given those vases show naked men, it's not the spears I'm worried about Phil having to sculpt.
So long as he poses them at rest it should be OK.
Quote from: Steve J on 11 July 2014, 09:04:08 AM
From a purely wargaming point of view, vertical spears would be much more practical. At the club I used to see players with their bases several inches apart due to the 45 degree posed spears preventing the opposing armies from meeting. They never came up with a satisfactory resolution to this problem...
Deeper bases and mount the figures a bit back. Lets you pop a few commanders or augurs sacrificing chickens or a dopplesoldner or two out front ;)
Quote from: Techno on 11 July 2014, 06:47:06 AM
....and how did that helicopter get in on the act ?
In case you're serious, and for anyone else wondering, it's a Mil Mi-2 helicopter - NATO codename "Hoplite"
Ohhhhh....Thanks, I :).....Needless to say, that had gone straight over the top of my head.
Cheers - Phil
Same here.
Quote from: Steve J on 11 July 2014, 09:04:08 AM
From a purely wargaming point of view, vertical spears would be much more practical.
I have fond memories of my young brother squealing with a few bases of Peter Laing 15mm Hoplites embedded in his hand. :d
Quote from: Techno on 11 July 2014, 06:47:06 AM
Don't think I'll be allowed to make them with naughty bits....
Have you seen the Amazons range?
Quote from: fsn on 11 July 2014, 06:45:38 AM
Nicely played sir!
You're only saying that because it would give your Centurions something to shoot at!
And yes, helicopters frequently do go over people's heads. :-B
I think Technos real dilema is if he moulds the manly bits on the naked hoplites or not - You can just hear the conversation down the pub
Technos mate: Hi Phil, what have you been up to?
Techno: I have spent all day moulding penises' and testicles'
Stunned silence in Pub ;D ;D
Hmm... would you drybrush or wash? :-\
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 12 July 2014, 09:45:15 PM
I think Technos real dilema is if he moulds the manly bits on the naked hoplites or not - You can just hear the conversation down the pub
Technos mate: Hi Phil, what have you been up to?
Techno: I have spent all day moulding penises' and testicles'
That's all Greek to me.
Quote from: fsn on 11 July 2014, 11:54:14 AM
I have fond memories of my young brother squealing with a few bases of Peter Laing 15mm Hoplites embedded in his hand. :d
You didn't take Peter's advice to blunt the pins. Ouch!
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 July 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Given that the primary sources support the overarm pose and that, unlike the creators of some of the primary source material, the author of the underarm usage theorem has never fought in a hoplite battle line, I suggest we stick with the overarm pose and burn the author of the alternate theory on a pyre of his own works.
How's that for a solution? :)
My thoughts exactly.
Alternatively, Just have a good selection of chaps with upright spears...
Has anyone else read the book? If, in future years, they judge us by our magazines, then they will assume all women are slim and gorgeous.
Quote from: WeeWars on 12 July 2014, 11:12:07 PM
You didn't take Peter's advice to blunt the pins. Ouch!
Nah! Where's the fun in that?
Least a Gumpy PC wont try to do you for carrying an offensive weapon. :-\
ianS
The answer's simple: Techno carries on with what he's doing and everybody else goes out and gets himself a life. :P :P :P
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 July 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Given that the primary sources support the overarm pose and that, unlike the creators of some of the primary source material, the author of the underarm usage theorem has never fought in a hoplite battle line, I suggest we stick with the overarm pose and burn the author of the alternate theory on a pyre of his own works.
How's that for a solution? :)
As a German I am inclined to abstain from casting a vote which results in the incineration of literary works. Having done business with Mr Techno I am convinced he either works to specifications or - lacking detailled orders - approaches each "job" with the necessary research. Having said that I do wonder if authors do burn well :-\
Depends on the type of alcohol they drink. Phil being Welsh doesn't drink, the are all god fearing Methodists who ban ANYTHING you might enjoy.
IanS
They might be in the
North of Wales Ian.....That doesn't seem to fit the specifications here !! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: ianrs54 on 13 July 2014, 03:29:26 PM
Phil being Welsh doesn't drink,
No, no, no, Ian.....Because of the painkillers, I'm not
supposed to drink. :P
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: ianrs54 on 13 July 2014, 03:29:26 PM
Phil, being Welsh, doesn't drink; they are all god-fearing Methodists who ban ANYTHING you might enjoy. They'd probably even ban 10mm Aztecs, which is why we're still waiting for them.
I wonder. You've heard of the rugby team in the van on their way home who decided the captain was too drunk to sing with the rest, and so insisted he drive instead?
Quote from: ianrs54 on 13 July 2014, 03:29:26 PM
Depends on the type of alcohol they drink. Phil being Welsh doesn't drink, the are all god fearing Methodists who ban ANYTHING you might enjoy.
IanS
Theoretically I'm a methodist (my mum didn't like the CofE baptism service)
Doing stuff I don't enjoy would explain figure painting and games against Sunjester. "Oh, you've rolled above average. Again"