If that stupid label is here to stay, maybe we also need to start talking about Gibbonian Romans, Prescotian Aztecs, Carlylian Prussians, Wedgewoodian English.... Or possibly resume referring to them as republicans, which means something.
You ever read Polybius? Worth it just for the quote "an army to be used by politicians". After that, he's okay, if you need sleep.
I suspect he's a useful 'hanger' to describe the army of the mid republican expansionist period as, after all, the Res Publica lasts for several hundred years (technically all the way to AD14 and the death of Augustus). It's the difference between Victorian British and Falklands British. armies. The phrase is only really used by war gamers to describe the pre-Sullan/Marian civil war reforms and the continuing evolution of the army, especially as principes developed armour and the trarii became less important with the adoption of the heavy pila. In fact, when I was studying the period there was never any mention of the name...
I have every respect for a good historian. But to name a Roman era after a Greek is silly.
I have spoken.
Er... Yeah...
Polybius was a Greek, yes, but a Greek who lived in Rome and witnessed Rome's destruction of Carthage and Macedonia, the former first hand as a friend of Scipio Amelianus. It should be noted he developed the idea of writing history without bias too. Okay, he was not a citizen of Rome, but he is the first generation of Roman overseas subjects, a foretaste of what the Empire would become. If that alone doesn't entitle him to a say, nothing does.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 19 June 2014, 05:57:55 AM
I have every respect for a good historian. But to name a Roman era after a Greek is silly.
Considerably less silly than having to constantly refer to it as "The Republican Roman Army as described by Polybius" which is, after all, something of a mouthful.
But much less apt than Scipionic, invoking one of the few really talented (and civilised) Roman commanders.
The issue with that is the army structure was used for so much longer, and earlier than the influence of the Scipios. Marian and Camillian at least describe the (supposed) reformers of the army at that juncture. The Scopios were just using the tool that was in existence.
So was my namesake, but nobody bats an eye at referring to an Alexandrian army, despite the potential confusion with Ptolemaic forces.
The issue is partly that only wargamers, who include some excellent historians and a lot of not-excellent ones, use that ridiculous label.
It's a term understood by it's target audience. If it's not understood by others who cares? Apart from you FK, obviously. This just seems to be a solution looking for a problem to me.
I hear the word Polybian and I know we're talking about Romans in three distinct lines, etrusco-corinthian helmets, pila, long spears, chaps with wolfskins and javelins, long oval shaped shields with a central spine, etc. Seems to do what it says on the tin.
The main point we are forgetting is that we are trying to put a description of an army into neat pigeon holes, whereas the Romans would have thought of it simply as 'The Army'. As the great Professor David Shotter said "Romans, the most convservative nation on Earth. Just remember the average Roman in the streets personal politics are somewhere to the right of Hitler, the left of Stalin and behind Genghis Khan!'
... and if I were talking to a Roman I'd refer to "the Roman army" (or perhaps "exercitus Romanus") but talking to a wargamer I'll stick to Polybian Romans :)
Quote from: mad lemmey on 19 June 2014, 05:15:42 PM
Just remember the average Roman in the streets personal politics are somewhere to the right of Hitler, the left of Stalin and behind Genghis Khan!'
Safest place to be....
Behind Gengis - isn't the ground a bit messy, although it will grow good roses.....
IanS
But "no grass grows where my horse has trod" if you recall.
Quote from: Hertsblue on 21 June 2014, 08:25:44 AM
But "no grass grows where my horse has trod" if you recall.
No grass ... roses might be another matter
Quote from: Hertsblue on 21 June 2014, 08:25:44 AM
But "no grass grows where my horse has trod" if you recall.
I wasn't there, but didn't Attila say that?
"Where the Turk's horse once treads, the grass never grows." - Fuller, "Holy War", Bk V (1639)
Radioactive horse shoes.
Or they dipped the horses' feet in 'Round up' !
Years ago, the next door neighbour used that particular weedkiller on his brick laid patio......And then walked over his pristine lawn to his garden shed.
A few weeks later you could see where he'd walked by the 'dead grass footprints'.
The neighbour's wife was NOT amused. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil