Hello everyone!
I'm new to the forum and I'm hoping someone here can help me answer a question that's been bugging me for some time.
I'm working away on my collection of FPW miniatures and I cannot find any information on what the fanions looked like for the Zouave regiments 1st and 3rd battalions.
If anyone can provide a description, drawing, or even a book title that's known to have the information I would be most appreciative!
Thanks! :)
-Pat
I can't help Pat but welcome to the forum. I'm sure some of the other members who are very knowledgeable on this period will be along soon to help you out :).
Pat
Welcome to the forum.
Not sure I can be of great help, as I only have colour details for the Tirailluer and Chasseurs.
Also not sure how you will apply this company fanion to a model. They were approx. 1 foot square and the pole was stuck in the barrel of the rifle of the bearer.
Chad
Carefully Chad!
I'm not sure on this one, but welcome to the Forum and I'm sure the Big Guns of 1870 will be along momentarily to help. Mollinary, Le Manchu, Camerionian, Last Hussar, Hertsblue and Dour Purtian are an absolute gold mine of information on this period, and I am but standing on the shoulders of giants...
Lemmey
I based my comment on the illustrations of Tirailleurs
in Detaille, who I assume is correct.
Chad
And I was being very silly Chad! ;)
I have no sources for this, so your ahead of me (as always).
Lemmey
No probs. mate. ;)
Found this on the t'internet.
Such a flag is not a standard as such, in the same sense as a regimental colour, but a fanion (the nearest English equivalent is perhaps battalion or company marker). It is used to mark the position of the unit, especially its commanding officer, on parade and in the field. They are only small, and were attached to a small staff which was placed in the muzzle of a rifle. The regulation sizes were 50cm x 40cm for a battalion fanion, 40 x 30 for a company fanion, and 34 x 27 for a platoon fanion (the latter can also be a triangular pennant 30 x 40).
The regulations of 1857 laid down the colours:-
1st battalion of each regiment: blue sheet
2nd battalion: red sheet
3rd battalion: yellow sheet
4th battalion: green sheet
When wartime expansion created extra battalions, these used fanions in the same sequence of colours, but with a central vertical white band down the sheet.
The devices were coloured by company (note that in the French army, companies were numbered consecutively through the regiment, and not the battalion):
1st, 5th, 9th, 13th: blue
2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th: red
3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th: yellow
4th, 8th, 12th, 16th: green
Chad
I have also put ina request for information on another forum.
http://18edelignesecondempire.clicforum.fr/
Will let you know if I get a response.
Chad
Wow, good find! 8)
I am afraid this is an area where I am a broken reed! The one book that I believe is likely to include such information is not currently in my collection. I had access to a friend's copy a couple of years ago, but he has now returned to France and I to England. The book is published by le leopard d'or in France, and is by the famous vexillologist Pierre Charrie. He produced a three volume series on French flags, the first on the drapeaux et etandards du roi (of which I do have copy), the second on the revolution and Ist empire (not my period), and the final volume on flags of the XIX century from 1814 - 1880. The books are magisterial, written in French in a pretty straightforward style, but a bit hard to get hold of in UK. But I think Le Leopard D'or have their own website, and I think the book is still available at about 58€. Sorry to be so imprecise.
Mollinary
Welcome from me too, Pat. :-h
Cheers - Phil
The paintings I've seen show the prophet's hand on the relevant background colour; there is some adornment in the corners but I can't remember what, grenades? Mollinary is the expert on flags, give him a bit longer and I'm sure he'll come up with something.
Quote from: cameronian on 15 June 2014, 11:03:33 AM
The paintings I've seen show the prophet's hand on the relevant background colour; there is some adornment in the corners but I can't remember what, grenades? Mollinary is the expert on flags, give him a bit longer and I'm sure he'll come up with something.
. Shouldn't give the poor chap false hope, Cam. Other than the book I mentioned I have nowhere to look. The flag you are thinking of is, I think, one of the fanions of the Tirailleurs Algeriens. There are some illustrations on Warflag, but I cannot vouch for their accuracy. I have seen a black and white picture of one of these on the web, an illustration from a Prussian book of 1899 showing trophies, but again I have no further details. If I came across a copy at a show I'd probably buy it, but I am not going to engage in cross channel e traffic just to answer this one question! And where would it lead? I am NOT going to do fanions for every 1st and 3rd battalion in my French Army, as that would be some 140 fanions! Sometimes ignorance is preferable!
Mollinary
Would it be worth looking for images from WW1?. Would the fanion been changed in the intervening years?
Just a thought
Quote from: Fenton on 15 June 2014, 12:13:34 PM
Would it be worth looking for images from WW1?. Would the fanion been changed in the intervening years?
Just a thought
. Not a bad thought, but it is a long time, and you do go through a change of regime in between. I think it highly unlikely that the pattern would remain unchanged.
Mollinary
From my previous source:
With red devices on a green sheet, this fanion belongs to the 4th Battalion, 14th Company of any of the regiments (3 until 1878, then 4; the changes in the 20th Century are just too complex to enumerate here).
The central device, the hand of Fatima, is a common device for Algerian units of the French Army. Fatima was the daughter of Mohammed - the hand represents good luck, or at least the warding off of bad luck. The hand on the fanion should be about 18cm high. In 1949, a regulation mentions that crescents pointing outwards are a sign of conquest, whereas crescents pointing inwards are a sign of surrender. Both the hand and the crescent were also used as decorative finials for the fanion staff.
Fanions remained fairly simple in design like this one until the 1920s, when the extended nature of the battlefield, and new specialisations, made each battalion and company relatively more important than in the days when regiments fought in ranks shoulder-to-shoulder, and so fanions were invested with a lot more prestige than before, and the regulations were honoured more in the breach than in the observance, as extensively decorated ones became the norm.
Chad
And there's more:
These pennnants were adorned with the hand of Fatima and a crescent in each corner, of the color green for the four battalions.
Of these guidons which have been preserved, several do not follow the provisions of the circular regarding the green color for the crescents and the hand of Fatima:
The pennant of the 2nd Tirailleurs, 1st battalion, lost in Woerth (Franco-Prussian war, 6 August 1870), is 49 x 54.5 cm, with a red field and a light blue border of 5 cm width. The crescents and the hand of Fatima are light blue.
The pennant of the 2nd Tirailleurs, 2nd battalion, is 47 x 52 cm, with a blue field and a black border of 5 cm width. The crescents and the hand of Fatima are light blue, but they have their points oriented to the inside.
The pennants of the 3rd Tirailleurs, 3rd batallion, is red-orange with w white border and a white hand of Fatima.
Chad
PS Not Zouaves but hope it helps
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the warm welcomes to this forum! I really appreciate it, and all the suggestions provided so far!
I'll try to comment on some of the suggestions so far.
I actually own a copy of Pierre Charrie's Drapeaux et Etendards du XIXeme Siecle, I haven't found anything in it that mentions Zouave fanions, granted my french isn't the strongest even though I was taught it all through elementary school. But I've pulled it from my bookshlef and am going through it once more. The fanions he discusses in the section on the 2nd Empire are: Fanions d'alignement, Fanions des chasseurs a pied, Fanions des tirailleurs algerians, Fanions de l'armee d'afrique, fanions des officiers generaux, fanions de chefs de corps.
Its this book that the crwflag, got their Turco fanion information (Thanks Chad for reminding me of that website). So that's helpful for anyone that doesn't have access to this kind of pricey book!
The other book that mollinary mentioned is Die Trophäen des preussischen Heeres in der Königlichen Hofund Garnisonkirche zu Potsdam by Gustav Lehmann. Its pretty uncommon and its incredibly pricey. So I had this book sent to the university Library that i work at through Inter Library Loan (I'm a Librarian) and unfortunately it didn't have anything on Zouave fanions either. Or it's buried in the text--I've been swamped at work that i haven't had time to really go over it in a fine tooth comb. As a side note, it did also mention the Turco fanions that were captured. There is an extensive section of plates at the back of the book in black and white which show many of the French Tri-colours that were captured.
I'm starting to wonder/question all this lack of information in either German or French sources. Maybe Zouaves simply used the fanions of the line regiments after the restructuring in 1852 which incorporated the three regiments that were created into the regular french army. Maybe its comparable to Prussian titles of muskeeters/grenadiers which really didn't mean much to organization, and were merely legacy terms.
But so that its all gloomy with lack of an answer, I present everyone some links!
Here are some pages from Les Uniformes de l'Armée française 1690 depuis 1900 which show some fanions
http://dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?img=mgr05930&format=1
http://dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?img=mgr06021&format=1
http://www.grosser-generalstab.de/lh/lh3/lh3_56.jpg
Also with all the talk of the Turco fanions,
Here are two colour photos of 2 surviving examples which were captured in the frontier battles.
http://dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?seite=5&fld_0=MI008197
http://dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?seite=5&fld_0=MI010015
Hi Oat,
Well, it seems you are probably better qualified than any of the rest of us to answer this question! I am envious of you having your own copy of Drapeaux et Etendards, it is still on my to get list. I know it is always dangerous to argue from a lack of evidence that something does not exist, but in this case it does not seem inappropriate. Charrie is I believe accepted by the French community as the expert on this period. My friend who owned a copy was a serving French Major General with an interest in flags, and it was his prime source. Charrie is also pretty thorough in his other work (his book on the royal army is amazing). If he has separate sections dealing with the fanions of other regiments, it would be odd for him to ignore Zouave fanions if indeed they had distinctive ones. Your idea that they carried line fanions is an interesting possibility, given that by 1870 they are in effect Europeans in fancy clothes, rather than African Moslems, unlike the Turcos. The Turcos having fanions with specific Islamic imagery makes sense, would it make as much sense for the Zouaves?
I think the final chance for getting a definitive answer might be to ask the Musee de L'Armee. I have not approached them, but other military museums I have contacted have been only too happy to share their esoteric material with interested punters. Anyway, good luck with your search, and welcome!
Mollinary
I'm always impressed by the depth and breadth of knowledge on this forum :). Long may it continue!
Just to finally advise on the response I had from the other forum. Again no details for Zouaves but only Tirailleurs.
Chad
Sorry to sound like a wet rag on this but would fannions even show up on a 10mm figure. The illustrations I've seen of Turcos with fannions give the impression that they are not much bigger than large handkerchiefs.
They would be small compared to the TriColour, about half the size. Tricolours (1860 model) had official dimensions of 100 x 100 cm on a pole of 235 cm. Battalion fanions officially measured in at 50 x 50 cm ( for 1,3,4th battalions, 67 x 67 cm for 2nd battalion) on a shaft that measured 80 cm long. 20 cm's of the shaft was plugged into the barrel of the rifle. So on 10 mm (or in my case 6 mm) the flags would be quite small by not so small as not to be seen. I hope this isn't boring everyone with measurements and all that.
And here is an interesting fanion. In fact one of the few that I've found represented in any sort of image which isn't the Turco's 4th battalions fanion, if I recall the colours correctly.
https://thehammocknovel.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/xir-212555-tirailleurs-bridgeman-art-8-7-12.jpg
Although I haven't found anything in print relating to garde national fanions, this painting would lead me to believe that they had a white over red fanion.
The painting is called "The Tirailleurs de la Seine at the Battle of Rueil-Malmaison, 21st October 1870 "
There is more information about the painting here https://thehammocknovel.wordpress.com/tag/thomas-gibson-bowles/
And interestingly, there amidst the Tirailleur is a lone line infantryman and a lone line officer. I have tried to achieve this look on some of my bases.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Froeschwiller%20Project/IMG_1309_zps766ba16f.jpg)
Great!
In the painting Le Denière Cartouche, of the house at Bazillere defended by the Marines of 12th Corps, there are all branches of the French army APART from Marines!
They do take umbridge...
Quelle surprise!