IMPETVS

[fred.]

Good stuff. I will have a proper look

[Zippee]

Just had a quick look - how well does it cope with bigger armies? The first page mentions 7-10 units, which for my group would  be regarded as pretty tiny. We would want at least twice that size.

Bear in mind that that is 28-40 WRG bases - so not that tiny. I think you'll find many of the assumptions in the rulebook presume 28mm figures which with the move distances and table size generates a smaller, tighter, less open game - the forum and competition circles discuss this quite a bit.

A lot depends on the type of army - your Gallic horde has a lot more units than does a late Byzantine, the points system assumes 350 or 500 for a game as a rule, 350 will give you a comfortable evening game of a couple of hours, 500 a longer game of 3 to 4 hours. Of course if you eschew points it matters not a jot

We find the system scales very well, the only issue (as with any variable command activation system) is in large multi-player games where some feel that waiting for others to have a turn is tedious. Personally I don't see it as much different from waiting on an IGOUGO system but it gets mentioned. But beyond that we've found it comfortable handles 1000 plus points - there doesn't seem to be a particularly pivot point where it becomes unwieldy, although deciding how many commands and such is important. The lists as presented are scaled for 500 points

As an example, a random pair of 500 point lists off of my hard drive reveals:

Konstantinian Byzantine
5 units of skoutatoi with supporting archers (that's two bases per unit - spears and bows)
6 units of Tagmatic Kavallaroi (heavy horse archers)
4 units of Pechenegs (light horse archers)
So that's 20 units

Normans in Siciliy
10 units of milites (heavy knights)
6 units of heavy infantry (spearmen)
2 units of crossbowmen (loose order)
6 units of archers (loose order)
So that's 24 units

hope that helps

[burnaby64]

These rules are popular at our club and have provided some excellent games. We've used the Basic rules for public participation games aimed at a younger audience with considerable success. Kids enjoyed the simplicity of the rules, the speed of play and the general buzz of the thing. They really do tempt me to get into Ancients wargaming........

[Ithoriel]

At the moment I'm using Warmaster Ancients for the period, and enjoy them, but Impetus sounds interesting. However at well over a hundred euros for the set of rules and extras it would represent about half a years worth of my gaming budget. Anyone familiar with both Warmaster Ancients and Impetvs willing to have a go at a compare and contrast of the rules?

[toxicpixie]

The basic rules and a shed load of armies for them are free - give them a whirl to start! You can scale that up without much effort if you want a "DBM sized game" rather than a "DBA sized game" - though that's not really a straight comparison as they're very different

The full rules are then all you really need, as you can bash up a proper army for those lists not covered by judicious use of the freebie lists and some brain noodling. Though the supplements are interesting and have loads of campaign stuff based on the extra lists they aren't as vital as (say) the Army Lists for DBM were...

[Genom]

I would say download the free copy of Basic Impetus and give that a try. It has a bundle of army lists available for free as well. The armies are equivalent to about 130-150 pts If I remember rightly. But It'll give you a good go at all the basic rules before forking out for the main rulebook (Check at shows for it as well although it may be worth holding out for the second edition).

As for all the supplements, check to see what's in them before you buy. Of all of them, there are only 2 that include the period I'm interested in for instance.

I'm not sure I can compare them properly to Warmaster though, they are 2 very different systems, although I do play both.  Getting your head round the cohesion test is the bit that will take the longest to work out, but once you've got it you'll find the rest is all very simple mechanics. It always seems a bit strange to me at times because you don't line units up when you make contact and they continue to move forward an back from those contacts which can look a bit weird but once you've accepted that is just part of the game, you'll get on fine with it.

The last bit I would emphasize from what someone said earlier, I usually play it in 28mm and it is a very different game in 15mm. (I use my 10mm for this as a base is 2 warmaster bases wide.) It's much more open and flowing than 28mm which can seem quite cramped.

[Zippee]

At the moment I'm using Warmaster Ancients for the period, and enjoy them, but Impetus sounds interesting. However at well over a hundred euros for the set of rules and extras it would represent about half a years worth of my gaming budget. Anyone familiar with both Warmaster Ancients and Impetvs willing to have a go at a compare and contrast of the rules?

You only need the rulebook and as others have said the basic version is free - although very much simplified, it will probably be enough to let you know if you care for the game at all. And no rebasing needed, just shove 4 WM bases together per unit and you're good to go.

Also bear in mind that all the updates and amendments that are in the Extra Impetus booklets are available for free on the website as are a bunch of tournament suggestions and clarifications. So you only "need" Extras if you're interested in the specific army lists - you certainly don't require them to dip your toes in.

Compare and contrast - bit like compare and contrast steeplechasing and dogfighting but let's give it a go  

In fact not a lot of point enumerating how WM works - you're doubtless more familiar than I am - it's been a while for me  

So Impetus:

The turn - a complete turn is made up of the activation of all the commands of both sides, the order of activation is randomised but guaranteed

Command: The army has a command level (Good, Average, Poor) which effects the radius of its commanders. Each commander is rated on a scale of 1 to 6 (I think - mostly you only use three) this affects his chance of activation.

Activation: Both players select a command, roll dice and add the commander's value. The winner activates his command (there is a risk of command level improving/declining once per game per commander). That command then activates each unit, completing all movement, shooting and combat for that unit before progressing to the next unit. Once each unit has been activated both players again select a command and roll for initiative. Each command can only be activated once per turn but you are free to select which command you dice for each turn (just because you tested for the left wing last turn and failed doesn't mean you have to keep testing for that command on successive turns, you can chop and change).

Movement: A unit can move multiple times under its activation - the first move is fine, each successive move requires a dice roll at the end of it, failure means you are disordered and can move no further this activation. Units may move and shoot in the same activation - they may move then shoot, they may shoot then move, they may not move-shoot-move. Any move can be declared as a charge (move to contact) this can have an optional extra random distance added to it. A charge may be the second or third move but you risk being disordered on contact. If you charge and fail to make contact you are disordered. You may shoot and then charge. If you are in contact you fight unit v unit based on most front edge contact (there is no lining up or geometry), other units that also contact you or your enemy also fight (this means that an already activated unit may get re-activated by another unit piling into an on-going combat in the same activation or a later one). If a combat is not resolved, the units remain in contact and will fight again when the enemy activates (and again if more units pile in).

Disorder: this is bad, it cuts your combat power but mostly it makes you very much more fragile and likely to take losses. The very first thing you can do in your activation is to test to regain order - this is harder than it looks. Failure allows you to make one move (and/or shoot), or you can expend your entire turn making multiple tests to regain order (how many depends on command level) but can do nothing else at all.

Multiple Units: you can activate and move groups of units as blocks, lines or columns, they may also move multiple times. You cannot form and split a group in the same activation. Each unit within a group tests for disorder independently - disordered units cannot be part of a group, so if the middle unit of your warband becomes disordered you cannot be a group until it gets its act together again. You cannot shoot as a group.

Reactions: if an enemy unit tries anything fancy in your 'Zone of Control' (an area to your front) then you can react - so if they wheel or move obliquely or do anything much more than advance towards you then you get to react, ie interrupt their turn. A reaction can be to shoot or charge or evade. If a unit shoots at you from within this ZOC you can react.

Combat/Shooting: Each unit has a combat value (6 for a Norman Knight, 3 for a peltast) - this is also their defence/morale value. There are a handful of modifiers but basically you roll dice equal to your stat (usually 3-5, so not masses) needing 6 or pair of 5s to hit. Each hit does not represent a casualty; it represents the intensity of combat/shooting. In combat both sides roll regardless of whose turn it is, when shooting only the active side does. If a hit is achieved the enemy is disordered. They also take a test (Cohesion Test or CT) to see how they respond; this is THE critical test in the game and is rather marmite. Success means you just become disordered, failure means you take proportionate casualties to the degree of failure and become disordered. If you were already disordered you always take a casualty even if the CT is a success.

Casualties: each casualty you take lowers your combat value, when it reaches zero the unit is removed. The lower your combat value the more likely you will fail a CT badly - it's an exponential curve. So it is not the amount of hits you suffer but rather the degree of failure of the CT that is important. Hits reflect how effective the shooting was in disrupting the enemy's cohesion. More hits makes a failure of cohesion more likely and the impact of that failure more likely to be catastrophic. However it is perfectly possible to have a full strength cohort of legionaries take a single hit and be reduced to a worthless shadow of itself, whilst another takes several hits but shrugs them off and kicks you in the head. As I say this is pure marmite - people hate it or love it. You can't control outcome, only stack odds. It is fast, brutal and fun though (unless fun equates to micromanagement and control). There are a few modifiers to the CT - being heavy infantry certainly helps, being unarmoured, disordered unwilling levy doesn't. . .

Impetus: each unit may or may not have an impetus value (most skirmishers and missile troops lack it) - if you have (or had) an impetus value you may charge into contact, if not you can't. This stops levy archers charging phalangites for instance. If you are fresh (have taken no casualties) then you add your impetus to your combat dice when charging, if you have lost any casualties you don't. So troops with high impetus (Normans, Gauls) suffer significantly from that first casualty - everyone else just loses one dice.

Large Units: some troops may form large units - warband and hoplites can form a large unit with two bases one behind the other, the rear base takes all damage (casualties) the front does all the fighting, they get bonus combat dice for the rear unit as long as they survive. This makes them tough. Phalangites go one better being able to have up to 3 bases in a large unit. Late Romans and Byzantines can be in large units with archers, the archers can shoot but don't add support, they do die first though. All shooting and combat against a large unit is calculated against the front base, this is often an upgraded base (huscarls in front of fyrd).

The unit: Each unit has a move distance, a combat value (which also acts as its morale value), impetus value, drill status (how easily it falls into disorder) and a prestige value (high for bodyguards, low for rabble) - it will be classed as heavy cavalry, light cavalry, close or loose foot, shooters or skirmishers and have one of a range of available missile weapons and possibly special rules (long spears negate mounted impetus for instance) as well as a point value.

Army Morale: uses the prestige value of the units within the command, a command breaks once it loses 50% of its units combined prestige. An army when it loses 50% of the army's prestige.

I think that covers it - bear in mind many of these concepts (multiple moves, multiple commands, groups, reactions) don't apply in Basic

[Ithoriel]

Thanks Zippee, I'd downloaded the basic rules last night and was a bit puzzled as to why people were enthusing about them. The full version sounds rather more interesting. Perhaps one to pick up at Claymore in August when I might have some birthday money in my hot sweaty mitts

[fred.]

Me too. I've just read Zippee's explanation and it sounds a good game. Read the basic version  last night and really couldn't see much in it that appeals.

The language in the rules (presumably due to translation) doesn't help either.

[Wulf]

The treatment of Large Units and the fact that clashing units do not line up neatly as though they were on rails are the most appealing factors to me. One minor disappointment is that, despite clashing units not lining up, all units have the same base width, which seems unnecessary... In the free fantasy version, 'Monsters' are half the normal base width, I believe.

[Ithoriel]

The treatment of Large Units and the fact that clashing units do not line up neatly as though they were on rails are the most appealing factors to me. One minor disappointment is that, despite clashing units not lining up, all units have the same base width, which seems unnecessary... In the free fantasy version, 'Monsters' are half the normal base width, I believe.

Proof you can't please all of the people ....

I disliked the fact that things didn't line up and liked the standardised frontage. As ever, each to their own.

[Wulf]

Proof you can't please all of the people ....

I disliked the fact that things didn't line up and liked the standardised frontage. As ever, each to their own.

I've always found lining units up to be highly unrealistic. Base widths I'm not so bothered about, since I, for one, have no idea what a realistic unit width would be in a Roman or Alexandrian army, or what difference there would be between a Pike Phalanx and a unit of Skirmishers!  I have the feeling there were no such standards...

[Zippee]

No worries, you're welcome. I quite enjoyed seeing if I could remember the salient bits 

Yeah, I've never really understood why so many people prefer the Basic version – its very simple, just a guide to how combat works really with only 1 command per side. I do understand why people pick and choose from the additional things that Full Impetus offers and it speaks volumes as to the robustness of the rules that they can be used in a pick 'n' mix way.

There's quite a big (or maybe just vocal  ) Scots contingent on the Impetus forum so you should be able to find someone playing in the Edinburgh area.

The translation issues in the main rules are a well discussed weakness – they lead to some rather odd ways of saying things. Most have been ironed out by the forum now. Makes you wonder how the continent usually gets on with our anglocentric rules 

I think the same base width is firstly because most people's collections are already based that way (it's no coincidence that each Impetus unit is essentially equivalent to 4 DBM bases) and secondly so that the ZOC feature works.

Units not only don't line up – they may NEVER line up, if by accident you manage to you must misalign them slightly one way or the other. Combats are fought between units that are in most contact, so you project your frontage forward with an imaginary line perpendicular to the enemy's front. If you have two units in contact at an angle then the one with most frontage fights the other adds dice as support. A unit can support many combats, but can only fight as the main unit once per turn.

[Genom]

If you're in the Edinburgh area and are okay with a little bit of traveling, we've got a 28mm Impetus day happening at the Falkirk club at the end of April if you want to see how it works in action. (I always think this is easier to put rules into context)

[Ithoriel]

Genom, what date and where? Life will be pretty complicated at that point but if I can make it between other commitments - hospital, visitors staying and a kitchen being fitted - I'd love to come along.