Crusader and Saracen line

[Jagger]

I have decided to take the leap into the crusades after reading IronBow.  I am wondering if there are any thoughts to expand the crusader and Saracen/Arab lines.  From what is available, I can do early crusaders using normans/mid-medieval and fatamids using the existing arab line.  But I can't do mid-late crusades, byzantines, Seljuks, Turks, Ayyubids, etc.    To be honest, it is very slim pickings.  This may be the first 10mm period I make which is not exclusively based on the Pendraken line.

So any plans or not enough demand?

[jchaos79]

ooooh yes! bizantine figures!!! to confront against my not-yet-painted-armys of arabs and sassanid persinas.

Have my support in all that jagger has said

[Jagger]

JChaos, some of the Late Romans can be used as byzantines.  The infantry without crests work well.  The infantry is bulkier than the standard medieval/arab line but same height.   Some of the cavalry could be used as well but they are a good head taller than the standard medieval cavalry line.   You could use Normans for Varanganians.  I think Old Glory has byzantines but I don't like the strip infantry.  The cavalry are a little odd as the riders look too small for the horses.  But not too bad if you need to fill gaps.  Crusades is a real weak spot when it comes to 10mm.  I have been tempted to go 15mm but probably not.

[Blaker]

Ooooh yeesssss, Crusaders 

Ironbow-2 would be a great rules set to use them with also. I am building RCW with Pendraken's 10mm range for the Captain's Red Action rules.

[jchaos79]

JChaos, some of the Late Romans can be used as byzantines.  The infantry without crests work well.  The infantry is bulkier than the standard medieval/arab line but same height.   Some of the cavalry could be used as well but they are a good head taller than the standard medieval cavalry line.   You could use Normans for Varanganians.  I think Old Glory has byzantines but I don't like the strip infantry.  The cavalry are a little odd as the riders look too small for the horses.  But not too bad if you need to fill gaps.  Crusades is a real weak spot when it comes to 10mm.  I have been tempted to go 15mm but probably not.

Thanks you very much indeed!!

But a reference for byzantine command could be very nice... the rest of the army is possible to build up

[Leon]

You could use the command from the Ottoman Turk range for Byzantine command?  I've made a note of the other bits.

If anyone would like to put together a list of which codes they have used for the Crusades, that would be a great help to other people.

[FierceKitty]

Look at Irregular Miniatures. Their crusades figures are one of their better 10mm ranges. Kallistra also make some suitable stuff, though the figures are rather large, so best used mixed in with others in the less regular units; and there are also some Magister Militum Byzantines. All in all, the era is pretty well represented, I'd say. Unlike Aztecs, which NOBODY makes in 10mm, though there are dozens of 15mm figures.

[Jagger]

Initially I am looking at Fatamids and Ayyubids plus their typical auxillaries and allies.  I believe the primary elements of the Fatamid list can be completed from the Pendraken line except possibly the Turkish Ghulams.  But I think that is all I can do.

Here is a list of middle eastern troop types and their descriptions from the IronBow handbook for those interested.  BTW, the list and descriptions seem reasonably accurate.  The few that have puzzled me and looked up do have a history.  The actual army percentages are in the army lists which I am not posting.  But if anyone is interested, IronBow II is a free download from the PerfectCaptain site. 

Fatimids
Regimental Askar (R/As): Of various backgrounds and origins, including Arabs, Armenians, Turks, Sudanese, Greeks, and Slavs, some slave and some free. Regular regiments of heavy cavalry lancers.
Guard Foot Regiment (G/Rg). Well drilled and paid close archers with a front ranks of shielded spearmen and macemen, and with some élan due to regimental prestige (may even have been uniformed). May be Sudanese or Armenians.
Abid Foot Regiment (Ab/F). Armed like the Guards above, but less well motivated. Formed the bulk of most Fatamid armies, and were entirely made up of Sudanese troops.
Abid Recruits (Ab/R): Hastily raised Archers similar to the abid regiments above, but probably without the front rank of spearmen. Poorly motivated.
Zanj (Zanj): “Wild” tribesmen from the Sudan. Fast, unarmoured but for perhaps a light shield, but handy with sword and javelin.
Saracen Marines (S/Mr): mostly armed with crossbows, these troops were lightly armoured but usually had large shields.

Ayyubid
Toassin: (Toas) The elite Turkic heavy cavalry of the Ayyubids before the era of the predominantly Kipchaq Mamluks. Technically mamluks themselves, but using a different name to avoid confusion.
Qaraghulams (Qar): Possibly  of African origin, the term could probably be used for trained Arab and Kurdish units as well. Elite lancers, similar to Saracen Askari or Fatimid regimental Cavalry, only more heavily armoured, possibly on barded horses, and with greater discipline.

Arabs
Saracen Askar (S/As): The standard non-turkish heavy cavalry in the Middle East. Armoured lancers in the traditional Arab style, although these may be of Arab, Kurdish, African or other extractions. They can be found in armies from North Africa to Persia.
Note: although the term askar has wider application than merely heavy cavalry, most chronicles of the time use the term when speaking of an army’s core troops.
Bedouin (Bed): Nomadic Arabs living in a traditional pre-Islamic style. Mainly fast light cavalry with no armour beyond a light shield. Ubiquitous in the wastelands at the fringes of the Levantine world, though they fought in almost every army listed, even Crusader ones, although always unreliably.
Saracen Archers (S/Ar): A wide ranging troop type, virtually found in many hilly areas of the Islamic world. Unarmoured light archers.
Saracen Crossbows (S/Cb): Less well armoured than their western counterparts, and less disciplined, but better than other Saracen Archers.
Ahdath (Ahd): Town Militias of most Syrian cities. Armed with a variety of weapons, and of an indifferent quality.
Daylamis (Day): A rugged people from a rugged land, famed for being a source of fast and hard hitting skirmish infantry; lightly armoured, fighting with long two-ended spears, javelins, maces and shields. Once a common sight in Muslim armies, they were on the wane in the 11th century (or at least, began to lose their distinctive character).
Mutatawillah (Mut): A mixed bag of religious volunteers and some loot-seekers, mostly armed with javelins and shields. These were often found in most Muslim armies, and are sometimes referred to as merely ghazis (although the term is meant for any soldiers who volunteer for religious reasons).
Naffatun (Naf): Professional light infantry armed with all sorts of naptha-based fire weapons. Sometimes more of a danger to themselves than the enemy.
Saracen Thaqlah (S/Thq); Armoured professional infantry armed with shield and spear, which was seen at times in Syrian and Ayyubid armies.

Turks
Turcomans (Tuc): The unruly nomadic tribesmen who “settled” in the Levant in the wake of the Seljuk conquest. Though many thought of themselves as ghazis (border-dwelling warriors of Islam, looking to expand Muslim territory) most seemed interested in loot as well. Fast-riding but unreliable horse archers.
Turkish Askar (T/As): The personal following of a Turcoman tribal leader, or non Ghulam Turks settled in and around towns, or even mercenary Turkish tribesmen â€" a little more heavily armoured than the run of the mill Turcoman, with some armed with lances and maces, they were more willing to engage in close combat.
Turkish Ghulams (Ghu): The earliest form of Turkic slave-soldiers, though actually enslaved when young, trained, and freed by their masters in adulthood to become paid or landed retainers. More heavily armoured and disciplined than askari, and trained in area shooting. Most would be of Turkish or Central Asian extraction, but might include Greeks, Armenians, Slavs or any other nearby nation.
Note: The terms ghulam and mamluk are more or less synonymous during the era; we use mamluk to denote later soldiers of the type.
Turkish Foot (Tu/Ft): Less well-off Turcoman auxiliaries â€" skirmishers armed mostly with bows and javelins.
Kwarismians (Kwa): Like Ghulams, but much more heavily armoured. These were also probably the “Agulani” spoken of in early Seljuk armies.

Mamluks
Mamluks (Mam): Well disciplined, armoured horse archers of mostly Kipchak or Circassian extraction, but including many other refugees from the now Mongol-dominated steppe. First assembled under late Ayyubid rulers, they later seized control of their late master’s empire and became the ruling class of Egypt. Mostly armoured and able to deliver a harrowing shower of arrows.
Khassik Mamluks (Kas): The elite houshold troops of the Sultan, more heavily armoured and motivated than the typical Mamluk. The best of the oriental heavy horse.

Ilkhanid, Central Asian and Western Steppe
Steppe Nomads (S/Nom): lightly if not unarmoured horse archers, swift and slippery. May be used for a wide array of Nomadic groups from the banks of the Danube to the fringes of Mongolia. Among them are numbered the Cumans, the Pechenegs, the Alans, and a host of minor tribes. They’re either fresh off the steppes, or currently occupying them.
Steppe Nobles (S/Nob): Similar to other Steppe Nomads, only somewhat more armoured, and with a greater readiness to fighting at close quarters.
Nomadic Foot (Nom/F): Nomads who, for some reason or other, are on foot. Predominantly light archers.
Mongols (Mon): The terror of Eurasia. Similar to other Steppe nomads, but forged by the Great Khan into a fiercer, tougher, devilish force of nature.
Armoured Mongols (A/Mon): The same as their brothers above, but even tougher â€" they have lamellar armour.

North African
Berbers: (Ber): Good light cavalry, sometimes still seen in Fatimid service, a little more manageable than their Bedouin counterparts.
Berber Foot (Ber/F): These were mostly archers, but with spearmen with tall hide shields in the front ranks of the unit.

[Jagger]

I haven't built an army yet out of the arabs but looking at the Pendraken line, here is how I would use the arab figures to build a Fatamid army, 1095-1171.  The Fatamids were early opponents of the crusaders until overthrown by Saladin.  Saladin created the Ayyubid family dynasty controlling Egypt.

Fatamid Cavalry
AB 9 Heavy cavalry.  I would use these as the standard Fatamid Askar regiment and Saracen Askars.  Both wore mail, turbans or helmets and carried lance.  

AB 8 Medium cavalry.  I would use these as Bedouin light cavalry (possibly Berber light cavalry) joining the Fatamids as irregulars.  They were unarmored light horse cavalry wearing turban, without armor and carrying lance, sword and shield.

AB 7 Horse Archer.  As far as I know, no arab cavalry used bows (possibly Berbers?), so I would use them as allied Turcomen light horse archers joining the Fatamids on campaign.  

AB 2, AB3, AB5.  Spearmen and Archers.  I would use the spearmen and two types of archers to make the Guard and Abid Foot regiments.  These regiments were composed of a rank of spearmen fronting archers.  All the regular Abid regiments were composed of Sudanese.  infantry/archers while the Guard regiments could be composed of Sudanese or Armenians.  The Guardsmen wore richly decorated brocade or damask while the regular regiments wore plain clothing.

AB3 and AB5. Archers.  I would use both types for the hastily raised militia-type, infantry archer regiments.  The AB5 has that interesting cap.  I am not sure if it is meant to be a cloth/fur cap or a metal helmet with a turban wrap.  Might be able to use that figure for other archer types by varying how the cap/helmet is painted.

AB 4 and AB6. Swordsmen and Javelins.  These could be used to create irregular Sudanese Zanj Tribesmen armed with sword, javelin and shield.  Might be able to use Spearmen and Javelins to form Daylamis but haven't researched them yet.

The Ahdath city militias were a motley lot carrying a variety of weapons including some bows and javelins.  I would throw in a variety of figures from each infantry type.

The only major Fatamid unit missing is the Ghulam cavalry armed with lance, bow and more heavily armored than the standard Askar cavalry.   Even though the numbers were small in the Fatamid army, the Ghulams were the dominant cavalry and typically commanded by the senior leaders.  

The Fatamids had many an interesting battle with the Norman type Crusades, early crusader states and other muslim states.  They also allied with the Crusaders in a number of battles but more typical allies included minor Arab dynasties and the Syrians.

I used Ian Heath's Armies of the Crusades, a variety of Ospreys and the IronBow handbook to decide how to organize a Fatamid army.  Of course, I could have made, and probably did, a number of mistakes along the way.

[Leon]

Thanks for that Jagger, much appreciated.  I'll make a note of that for future reference.

[Jagger]

Thanks for that Jagger, much appreciated.  I'll make a note of that for future reference.

Wow, that is erie.  Word for word, that is almost exactly the same response I once received from an old boss when I asked for a raise.   

So does this mean we might see the Fatamid range finished off with some Ghulams possibly in the next 6 months or does it mean not the slightest chance of it happening in the foreseeable decade?  

I think those are almost the same words I used in response to my old boss before taking drastic action....

Just curious.  

[Leon]

Wow, that is erie.  Word for word, that is almost exactly the same response I once received from an old boss when I asked for a raise.   

So does this mean we might see the Fatamid range finished off with some Ghulams possibly in the next 6 months or does it mean not the slightest chance of it happening in the foreseeable decade?  

I think those are almost the same words I used in response to my old boss before taking drastic action....

Just curious.  

If it only requires the Ghulams to complete everything, then I'll make a note to see if we can fit it in sooner rather than later.

[Jagger]

Thanks Leon.

I was really curious more than anything.  I am going to do a Fatamid army using the Pendraken line.  If  a ghulam is available from Pendraken, I would complete the Fatamids entirely in Pendraken line.  But I can get Ghulams from other manufacturers.  And I am afraid I will have to go to other manufacturers for Byzantines and other arab/steppe dynasties.  Although I think I can use some of the Pendraken Late Romans for Byzantines.

Ideally I would love to see Pendraken expand their line to include the crusades.  However the demand may not be there even with the popularity of FOG.  But to see someone like Clibinarium produce a high quality crusader line would be very nice.  I actually like the way TredenteBolgona is approaching their crusades line with generic figures which can be mixed and matched to produce various types of units.  I suspect it reduces the total number of figures necessary to create a line.  I think with the crusades/medieval time period it could work very well as so many units are basically the same in terms of armor and weapons.  It is the dress that often differentiates sides.  Although I have never really examined the concept closely.

Also I mentioned I would use the horse archers as Turcomens.  After further reading, I am doubting more and more that Turcomens ever wore the arab headgear.  It seems a variety of fur caps or no hat at all was the typical headgear of light Turcomen horse archers.

[big_paul182]

Can you add,a Naffatun fig to the list?

Paul
Brisbane/Qld/Oz

[Leon]

Can you add,a Naffatun fig to the list?

Paul
Brisbane/Qld/Oz

Added!  There are some Google images of these with big rockets?!  Have you got more info on them?