'First Look' at the new Mongols!!!

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Oh the lingusTics of  technology of ballistics. NASA learned very early on that countdowns go 10, 9, 8, 7, 6... 4, 3,2,1 ignition.

Five too easily confused with fire!

I was always told arrows were loose shots were fired

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

British army changed from "Fire" to shoot in the early 70's cause shouting fire gave a volley of unaimed rounds going down range.

IanS

[nikharwood]

A superb range - beautifully done, chaps. In the chaos of selling & moving house, I didn't go with these from the 'off' - and regretting that now!

Anyway - added to the to-do list for 2014 methinks 

[sakura]

just received mine
at the risk of being controversial and stressing this is just my opinion but i am underwhelmed

they are small even given that they are asiatic on steppe ponies
a quick comparision with loa cavalry highlights this dramatically
nice sculpts but lost in the smallness
sorry but just look nearer to an 8mm
i will honour my pledge and send an order for the remaining but i will look to sell and recoup
not a criticism but i dont feel these work like yr more recent ranges

[Sandinista]

I disagree completely.

I have compared them against my Ottomans and my Polish, they fit in great. Clib's LoA sculpts are a little larger than a lot of Pendraken's other ranges so is not the best to compare with. Against the figures I will be fighting them, they match perfectly.

[Techno]

Phew !
Thanks Ian.
But I have to admit that I thought the whole point of the new horse dollies for the Mongols is that they should look smaller.
The 'humans' riding them should be as near as dammit the same size as all of PD's current figures. (Which, I'm guessing, isn't absolutely historically correct.)
Short of sculpting every single figure and horse...almost from scratch....Which would make Leon's designers' outlay for a range, far too expensive to be worthwhile...I'm not sure what can be done.
Cheers - Phil

[clibinarium]

The currently available LoA cavalry horses (which are used in the AWI range too) are intended to be large European heavy cavalry horses around about 16 hands tall, though its more about giving the impression of largeness rather than absolute scale accuracy.
Mongolian cavalry horses were ponies really, or about 12 to 14 hands, and if done right can look strikingly small, take a look at these guys from WW2
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol-Mongolian_cavalry.jpg
I might be wrong about this but wasn't there some discussion about Fireforge's new plastic mongols; people complained the horses looked to big, and Fireforge said the correct horse size looked too tiny? Don't quote me on that.

Interestingly much smaller horses are being done for the LoA range for use by the dragoons and hussars, and they will look oddly small next to the heavies;

[Techno]

Cheques in the post Clib !

I know we have discussed this before....But probably worth repeating

Seriously.....If i get the chance...I'll get Mrs T to take a couple of shots of me standing next to two (or more) of her gee-gees.
Me being, what was, around 6 foot tall (I bet I'm only 5'10"-11" now)....against two very different sized equines.....
The smaller of the two I'm thinking of, could easily have carried me in his youth.....And from what I've read...he'd have been the size that Norman knights would have used for battle....If he were a bit plumper...he wouldn't be too far off a 'Mongol' pony.
If I sat on him.....and made a (hopefully) proportionally accurate model of the pair of us.....I would make him look TINY.....We are talking 'My Little Pony', here.

The larger of the ones I'm thinking of is a 16 to 16-2 thoroughbred.....Whose Dad (sire) and Grandad (on the other side) both won the Derby.....(True !....'Billy' was rubbish as a racehorse, which was the only reason we could afford him, 'cos he was as cheap as chips.)

Now....If you saw a pic of me on 'Billy' (No chance !!....He's a dear old soul, but I wouldn't trust him not to splat me onto the concrete in the yard...he definitely has his moments... )......THAT would look proportionally 'right'.

Cheers - Phil

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Just wait until I ask Phil to sculpt Picts on Ponies, it will look like a Thelwell cartoon!

[Techno]

 
Cheers - Phil

[Matt J]

mine also arrived today.

They are exceptionally well detailed but I would agree they are rather small. Not so much the horses but the Mongols themselves. They are proportionate in size to other sculpts I have that are done by Phil so are consistent in that respect. They look tiny compared to the Normans (men not horses) I have but these are a bit over large. I think it is impossible for every sculpture to match every other for size and proportion it just isn't possible they all have their different styles. That is why it is good that one model maker works on one complete range.

Overall I'm happy with my purchase and look forward to painting them.

[clibinarium]

Cheques in the post Clib !

I know we have discussed this before....But probably worth repeating

Seriously.....If i get the chance...I'll get Mrs T to take a couple of shots of me standing next to two (or more) of her gee-gees.
Me being, what was, around 6 foot tall (I bet I'm only 5'10"-11" now)....against two very different sized equines.....
The smaller of the two I'm thinking of, could easily have carried me in his youth.....And from what I've read...he'd have been the size that Norman knights would have used for battle....If he were a bit plumper...he wouldn't be too far off a 'Mongol' pony.
If I sat on him.....and made a (hopefully) proportionally accurate model of the pair of us.....I would make him look TINY.....We are talking 'My Little Pony', here.

At six feet tall, you probably tower over the average medieval Mongol, Phil!

[sakura]

i didnt mean to offend
i also query the size of the men not horses
i lived in northern china a year
im 6ft 2 and 15 stone but many chinese here were of a similar size and the mongolians i met were smaller but very stocky and gave an impression of real bulk
by being so small in size some overall heft is lost and the men seen in proportion and hence too slight

it is difficult to get things right
someof the polish hussars i have seem small in comparison to other polish cavalry but they are ols sculpts
the league of augsburg are european i know but the size makes them a joy to paint and they look magnificent
im sorry as i admire pendraken and all you do  but these just dont do it for me
i was hoping to use kallistra chinese as enemies and accept the difference as being historical
i will still continue to use pendraken and think someof the figures are magniicent and work so well
cheers
i guess ill sell these ones and reinvest in otherpendrakens
again, no offence intended

[TinyTerrain]

Phil,

You appear to have missed off the bowstrings, and the buttons are nearly as big as his hands, can you sort it out 

Sorry couldnt help myself,

Craig

[get2grips]

Phil,

You appear to have missed off the bowstrings, and the buttons are nearly as big as his hands, can you sort it out 

Sorry couldnt help myself,

Craig

The eyeballs aren't that well defined either

[Techno]

Phil,You appear to have missed off the bowstrings, Craig

No I didn't.....It's just that they're so thin you can't see them.....Or the metal hasn't flowed thro' the gap in the mould 
Cheers - Phil

[Techno]

i didnt mean to offend

Don't worry about it Sakura....
One of the problems, would be having to make SO many different sized dollies....Both horse and men....and the different combinations of the two combined that it simply wouldn't be truly feasible.....From both a time and cost point of view.

You're right....It's difficult to get things 'right'.....In many cases we simply have to compromise on proportions etc.....And try our hardest to make them 'work' or 'look right'....and whatever we do, by having to compromise, it won't look right for everybody.
Cheers - Phil.

[sakura]

thanks phil
i was trying to be objective and imnot aware of all the problems of casting and sculpting
hope the forum wil  not become too sycophantic and criticism can be seen as being constructive
shame if we ever just try to be sarcastic at others because they have questioned the house stye
many thanks for repying in such a  positive manner
cheerss

[Matt J]

Sakura

Your comments are certainly valid and I agree.

But I can see the problem from Phil's perspective (I've been involved in model making but in a different industry). The horses are certainly right. If the Mongols had been bigger on the horses people would probably have complained even more about big men on little ponies - even though it is probably more historically accurate. It is a difficult one to compromise.

Maybe paint a few up and see what they are like. I'm still hugely impressed by the detail.

Matt

[Techno]

If I can find the time,I'll try and plonk something down in the next few days......Been meaning to do this for a while anyway, and try and explain some of the 'cheats' we have to use at this scale.
A lot of it is basically down to 'fooling the eye'....and by that, I mean making the figure look as right as possible (hopefully) on the tabletop, rather than necessarily physically accurate.

Just as a quick example.....A rifle....Such as the SLRs I've sculpted on the Falklands' troops.
In reality, on the model....They're actually a fair bit too long......But this is to compensate for the fact that a barrel on the model itself can't really be less than 0.5mm in diameter....And even that's pushing it a tiny bit as far as moulding and casting is concerned.

So....If we 'blew up' the 10mm man to life size, the barrel's diameter would be enormous......But by lengthening the barrel, it doesn't notice quite so much.
If I made the rifle itself, the correct length.....It would appear too short and 'stumpy' because of the 'fat' barrel.

Like I say.....It's very much down to the best 'compromise'.
And I hope the above makes some sort of sense !!

Cheers - Phil.