By Fire and Sword

[OldenBUA]

I think it's about time I start to ask that nice Mr Leon for a commission. 

But seriously, I would love to see what you come up with. While the 15mils are OK for the skirmish level, for the divisional level 10mm would really shine. Also because you need a lot of bases for a division! If you want to put more figures on a base (and it's certainly the way forward with 10mm), you might do something like 8 for foot, 6 for close order cavalry (hussars/sipahi) and 4 for open order cav (Tatars/Wallachians/Besli)? The number of figures on a base is not really important, anyway. So whatever you come up with will work, but varying the numbers might help in identification.

have you managed to understand the army lists yet Nik?

If you have any questions, just ask! I'll can certainly add new levels of confusion!

[Nosher]

Paydays arrived, willpower crumbled... just hope the purchase is worth it.

I've spent far too much in previous years on follys that are gathering dust and promised myself that 2014 would be a frugal year.

[GordonY]

I'm actually leaning towards Essex 15mils for this, simply because of choice of figures, with the current Pendraken ranges you're pretty much stuck with Poles vs Ottoman Turks.

[nikharwood]

Paydays arrived, willpower crumbled... just hope the purchase is worth it.

I've spent far too much in previous years on follys that are gathering dust and promised myself that 2014 would be a frugal year.

Nosher, mate - this comes with a Nik guarantee that you'll feckin' love it 

Haven't you got these armies anyway? Or at least the Swedes IIRC...

I'm actually leaning towards Essex 15mils for this, simply because of choice of figures, with the current Pendraken ranges you're pretty much stuck with Poles vs Ottoman Turks.

Boo hiss  Don't do it...there's got to be a ways of doing this using Pendraken loveliness..?! That's my mission for this weekend, anyway (poss including some German mercenaries too...) - oh, and a presentation for a *serious* job interview I've got on Tuesday morning 

[Nosher]

Yes Nik got both armies so no new purchases on that front - was speaking about follies in general and my 'habit' of purchasing stuff that I never get round to starting let alone finishing!

[OldenBUA]

with the current Pendraken ranges you're pretty much stuck with Poles vs Ottoman Turks

I would think that Swedes shouldn't be too difficult? The army is largely the same as in the Thirty Years war. So mixed pike and shot, field artillery, dragoons and reiters. Seems to me these can be got from the ECW range, with some additions from TYW, maybe even from the LoA range?

As said before, the new Mongols should work quite well for Tatars.

Cossacks should be possible too, I think FierceKitty has shown some battle reports recently (battle of Buggerovka). He did use some unusual codes though, like the peasant arquebusier from the Samurai range.

That leaves the Muscovites. Maybe you can use some of the troops from the GNW Russians. It's right after the period BFaS concentrates on, and some troop types didn't change too much. But here there are still gaps, I'm afraid.

In the supplement (Potop/the Deluge) that is planned, there will be Moldavians, Transylvanians, Hungarians and Brandenburgers. These might be more difficult with the current ranges.

[nikharwood]

I've got a couple of (forgive me) really basic questions which I'm confident that OldenBUA can answer for me 

Can you let me know which armies fought which opponents? (I think I've got it, but...)

Can you confirm that, in building army lists (and I'm definitely going Divisional!), that it doesn't really matter how many FSP you're looking at, as the scenario will balance? Or would it make more sense to look at rough equivalents anyway?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hello Nik

Some to be going on with:-

1588 Bychyna - Polish vs Habsburg & Polish, Polish victory;
1601 Kokenhausen - Polish Com. vs Swedish, Polish victrory;
1605 Kircholm - Polish Com. vs Swedish, Polish victory;
1610 Klushin - Polish Com. vs Russian, Polish Victory (Moscow captured);
1617 Moscow - Polish Com. vs Russian, a draw or Russian victory;
1620 Cecora - Polish Com. vs Turkish(Tatars), Turkish victory;
1621 Chocim - Polish Com ( including Cossacks) vs. Turkish, Polish vic;
1625 Gniew - Polish Com. vs Swedish( G.Adolphus), Swedish victory;
1627 Trzciana - Polish Com. vs Swedish (G. Adolph.), Polish Victory;
1633 Kamieniec - Polish Com. vs Turkish, Polish victory;
1633 Smolensk - Polish Com. vs Russian, Polish victory;
1648 Żółte Wody ( Yellow Water)- Polish Com. vs Cossack rebels, Cossacks victory;
1648 Korsuń - Polish Com. vs Cossack rebels & Tatars, Cossacks victory;
1648 Piławce (Pilavce)- Polish Com. vs Cossack rebels & Tatars, Cossack victory;
1649 Zbaraż & Zborów - the same, Polish Victory;
1651 Beresteczko - the same, Polish victory - about 220 000 soldiers fighting
1652 Batoh - the same, Cossack victory;
1654 - Russian invasion, Polish Com & Tatars vs Russians & Cossack, several battles mostly won by Russians
1655 - Swedish invasion, Polish Com vs Swedish, several Swedish victories;
1656 Warka - Polish Com. vs Swedish, Polish victory;
1656 Warsaw - Polish Com. vs Swedish & Brandenburg, called Swedish victory, but rather a draw;
1660 Cudnow - Polish Com. vs Russian, Polish victory;
1672 Kamieniec - Polish Com. vs Turkish, Turkish victory;
1672 Lwow(Lviv) -Polish Com vs Tatar, Polish victory;
1673 Chocim - Polish Com vs Turkish, Polish victory;
1674 Lwow - Polish Com vs Tatar, Polish victory;

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan
1674 Zurawno - Polish Com vs Turkish, a draw;
1683 Vienna - Polish&Emire&German vs Turkish, allied victory;

[OldenBUA]

I've got a couple of (forgive me) really basic questions which I'm confident that OldenBUA can answer for me 

Can you let me know which armies fought which opponents? (I think I've got it, but...)

Can you confirm that, in building army lists (and I'm definitely going Divisional!), that it doesn't really matter how many FSP you're looking at, as the scenario will balance? Or would it make more sense to look at rough equivalents anyway?

There's a quite detailed pdf in the downloads section that lists the enemies and allies for the various factions.

A big difference in FSP should (in theory!) be compensated with the various effects (tactics and so on) that the smaller force will get. How this works out in practice remains to be seen, we haven't played any divisional game (so far). Roughly equal forces means fewer adjustments are made. But if you start out with roughly equal forces in regards to number of bases/units, it's always possible to try and field one force with say only half of them, and see what happens. If one of your forces is much bigger than the other to start with, you will have fewer options here.

But I think you will have noticed by now that there is quite a bit of variation possible, with regards to FSP strength. The base cost of a really good regiment is much more than a regiment of poor troops. And within each regiment you can field various levels, and also spend points on various upgrades. So it goes from 1 FSP for a bare bones regiment of Levy to 21 FSP for a full elite cavalry regiment. The Polish/Lithuanians have more to choose from, so that gives more options. It's not very easy. But my advice would be to aim for a basic force of the most common troops, so (Elite) cavalry regiments for the Polish, with maybe one regiment of dragoons or infantry. The Ottomans and Tatars are more straightforward, as they have fewer options.

[nikharwood]

Excellent - thanks chaps, much appreciated 

Preparing for interview (tomorrow) tonight, but will work on some lists tomorrow night - either in celebration or commiseration!

[nikharwood]

Aha - thanks Anatoli 

http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/by-fire-sword-skirmish-list.html

http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/by-fire-sword-division-list.html

That'll do nicely 

[GordonY]

Very nice find Nik, those look superb as well, that IS an awful lot of donkey wallopers to be painting though.

Makes me reconsider the 15mm option, cos lets face it theres a lot less to paint on a 10mm horsey boy.

I'm still undecided, still I've got all day tomorrow to mull it over (money hits the bank on Friday ) and some will leave on Friday for either 2 x 10mm armies or the rulebook.

[nikharwood]

Very nice find Nik, those look superb as well, that IS an awful lot of donkey wallopers to be painting though.

Makes me reconsider the 15mm option, cos lets face it theres a lot less to paint on a 10mm horsey boy.

I'm still undecided, still I've got all day tomorrow to mull it over (money hits the bank on Friday ) and some will leave on Friday for either 2 x 10mm armies or the rulebook.

Those, plus OldenBUA's notes here, have made my mind up (not a big task) on 10mm at divisional level. I'm going to try to work up lists for these as soon as possible - definitely do-able using Pendrakenforum loveliness methinks: Polish, Ottomans, Swedish & Tartars certainly...

Looking forward to this one - I think, if nothing else, the armies involved will look the absolute business on the table 

[Steve J]

Once again Anatoli's Blog comes in very handy . For me too many horses to paint (at present ) but a great resource for the future, given that Pike & Shotte covers this period as well.

[Nosher]

Excellent - thanks chaps, much appreciated 

Preparing for interview (tomorrow) tonight, but will work on some lists tomorrow night - either in celebration or commiseration!

Good luck dude

Let us know how you get on!

[Nosher]

The satisfying thump (literally... think I might need new floorboards near the front door) of BFAS hitting my doormat today. Had a brief flick through.

Immediate thoughts?

Like
1. The fact that its a proper book

2. Decent background history on the period and forces involved

3. Great to see less popular forces covered

4. Feels like it is value for money - proof will be if its playable

5.  Once I got my head around the army lists I wont need to buy anything new at skirmish level

Dislikes
1.  Somehow feels quite cluttered... I dont know if anyone has a copy of Napoleons Battles? Feels a bit like that...

2.  Pages and pages of army lists - very similar to FOW. Not really sure its all necessary?

3.  The army lists are quite confusing - explanation on how they work feels a bit vague

4.  Lots of GW influence (WYSIWYG, collecting armies, painting figures - dont need it, been doing the hobby for years, dont need advice on paintbrushes, paints etc)

5.  Once I got my head around the army lists I WILL need some more figures to play Divisional Level games

[Leon]

Dislikes
5.  Once I got my head around the army lists I WILL need some more figures to play Divisional Level games

I think you've got this in the wrong section, surely it's a plus!   

[Steve J]

I think you've got this in the wrong section, surely it's a plus!

[OldenBUA]

Like
4. Feels like it is value for money - proof will be if its playable

IMHO it's quite playable, once you get the hang of it. We had our misunderstandings at first, but asking a few questions at their forum helped. To me, the strong points are the way battles are set up, based on force point difference. Also, the fact that it uses D10's, and not the ever present D6's gives you a different spread of probabilities. Most units have low hit chances (4's or 3's or even less), so when you do get a number of good scores it can really make a difference. The down side is that you have the rules, and then the army special rules, and then the unit special rules. It all stacks up, it's in different places in the book, and it's not always clear how they influence each other.

Dislikes
4.  Lots of GW influence (WYSIWYG, collecting armies, painting figures - dont need it, been doing the hobby for years, dont need advice on paintbrushes, paints etc)

That's a consequence of it first being aimed at the Polish market, I guess. It makes it more accessible to beginners. For the English edition, they could have left it out, since it's mostly the old farts who are buying the book (myself included).

[GordonY]

Yep decided that my 15mm heresy was a scale too far and will be doing them in 10mm Pendraken loveliness, but because of the smaller figures I thought I'd shrink the bases down to 30x15/30x20/30x30, anyone see any problem with that?

Plus it has the advantage of making my 6ft x 4ft table that much bigger when doing divisional (and maybe bigger) games.