Younger wargamers?

[Sean Clark]

My club is pretty healthy mainly down to one member who is head of history at one of the local schools cherry picking likely types for initiation. We have several memebrs now in their 20's who started at the club in their mid teens, and most are playing historical games.

Interestingly (and perhaps topic for another debate) but the GW contingent at the club are turning away from playing Warhammer in its latest incarnation. Trawling the various forums seems to show a slow decline in interest in all things GW, and not just from the usual GW bashers.

[Steve J]

i started long before G W does that make me really old. . . .?

Not from where I'm standing it doesn't . I got into war gaming a few years  before the very first White Dwarf came out. For years I had the first 7 issues and then gave them to a friend whilst at Uni. If I still had them they'd be worth quite a bit of money now .

[howayman]

Do not get me wrong ,i have done my fair share of fantasy role playing and since the late 70s have wanted a skeleton army but when somebody tried to say your force had to have this and that but couldn't have him or her and they must have this colour uniform i thought "ITS FANTASY for gods sake" and never bought into it.
   the youngsters come to this through a high street retailer not a back street shop or kiosk at a metro station the way i did. Its given to them on a plate for a cost. a move to historical means meeting people who know their stuff, and often tell you out right that those uniforms are wrong, that those tanks were not used at that time etc, etc. and most kids can not handle that type of put down in a hobby.
  the ones that want to will move on into historical gaming eventually.

[sebigboss79]

I see the issue twofold.

Firstly, yes the younger ones are easily influenced into believing GW is the one and only truth. no need to elaborate. We all been there, seen it.
For me it is a pitty that we as gamers apparently are less successful to show the youngsters how much fun wargaming can be.

We could have:

-intersting talks across all age groups
-free admirers ( )
-a healthy mix of games and ages (we don't get younger guys)

but instead we have

-Powergamers
-GW Fanboys bombing (or trying to) and sabotaging other wargames and if it is only by trashtalk during demo games.
-we get LOTS of young guys (and girls) LEAVING the hobby for a variety of reasons.

Especially the last point is very sad. I know a 12 years old guy in my German LGS who was playing Space Marines. He did invest time and money in HIS army and was quite skilled playing it already. What happened to him deciding it is not worth the effort? Well some GW fanboys knowitalls wiped his entire aarmy out in round 1. Not once, not twice.

Others look at the amont of time they have to invest and decide to go back to computergames.

Does GW address that? On the contrary. Beginner games and the "help" they offer are just self interest they attempt to cover in "doing something for the hobby". GW does not give a flying f.. about "the hobby". They care about next and only next, annual report. But instead of ranting only let us think about what we, the gamers could do.

We should only buy from a business that does something for the hobby. That spurs interest and has a shall we say more decent approach to business?

We should encourage younger gamers to join us. Show them how much fun it can be to do some reading about the "Desert Rats" or Arnhem, learn something, buy and built an army and get together with other, likeminded peple and PLAY. Playing should be fun. It should be accessible and allow some freedom of choice. You want King Tiger Tanks to go with your Roman Legionaries? By all means if the ruleset supports it do it.

Most of all the older generation f gamers needs to realise we NEED the younger ones. And it is up to US (not GW!!!) to shape them to be "right". It can happen. Not overnight but everytime you can get someone interested in what you are doing is a chance they will pick it up at some point.

My daughter (6) already paints Battlemechs (very expressionistic) and wants to do a Star Wars Army (god knows how much it will cost me..). Another army she wants is Romans (yay) and she has read about the Roman soldiers so she knows how to build that army.

[Kiwidave]

Interestingly (and perhaps topic for another debate) but the GW contingent at the club are turning away from playing Warhammer in its latest incarnation. Trawling the various forums seems to show a slow decline in interest in all things GW, and not just from the usual GW bashers.

Just the opposite at the club I sort of still attend - 8th edition of Warhammer has created a resurgence of interest. Not surprising though really, as our club was founded by WFB players, and has always been principally a fantasy cub. A few members had dabbled with WAB for a while, but that has waned, and once upon a time there was an interest in Warmaster Ancients....

[petercooman]

   the youngsters come to this through a high street retailer not a back street shop or kiosk at a metro station the way i did. Its given to them on a plate for a cost. a move to historical means meeting people who know their stuff, and often tell you out right that those uniforms are wrong, that those tanks were not used at that time etc, etc. and most kids can not handle that type of put down in a hobby.
  the ones that want to will move on into historical gaming eventually.

This is true, i wouldn't know half as much about uniforms equipment and god knows what if it weren't for my wargaming. Wargaming equals research and equals LEARNING. And that my friends is a word not many youngsters want to associate with their hobby

When you get a little older, your interests start to shift a little, and you might get more in to history oppossed to when you are in school or shortly after. I think the reason for this is because you are being fed constant information in class about all kind of subjects, insted of learning about what interests YOU.
When you get older and start looking into it yourself you choose your own subjects, and that makes it easier and even enjoyable.

I can honestmy say, there was only one class in high school that i failed in 6 years, and that was history .
And know you can't even open a cupboard in the house without a book about a long gone era falling out 

You have to have your own history before you can appreciate that of others.

[Hertsblue]

Just the opposite at the club I sort of still attend - 8th edition of Warhammer has created a resurgence of interest. Not surprising though really, as our club was founded by WFB players, and has always been principally a fantasy cub. A few members had dabbled with WAB for a while, but that has waned, and once upon a time there was an interest in Warmaster Ancients....

Our club was always an historical group, to the extent that one meeting a month was always solely Napoleonic. I have watched it, over the space of forty years, gradually get taken over by the fantasists and 40k-ers. Today, one table a meeting is all the history buffs can manage whilst all the yelling and excitement is grouped around the 40k tables at the other end of the hall.

Why? Largely I think because of that greatly misunderstood and subtly powerful entity - marketing. Marketing demands money and resources, but once in place yeilds high rewards. Marketing made GW what it is today - a listed stockmarket company. Marketing has raised Battlefront and FOW to the second most popular period in the genre. Against that what can the historical fraternity muster? We are, as my old boss used to say, "farting against thunder".

However, we do have one huge advantage - direct access to the youngsters. We often get lads wandering over to see what we're putting on. We've managed to persuade one or two to join in from time to time. One lad even turned up with a few tanks of his own to play in a WW2 game. That's the way it has to be - softlee, softlee catchee monkey.

[Nosher]

Sounds like the club I attend Hertblue.

One historical table at one end of the hall and GW and all its derivatives taking up 90% of the tables. The old fogeys crammed around the historical table while everyone under the age of 40 is playing something fantasy related.

Personally I dont care as the 10% I game with have good personal hygeine, know what a toothbrush looks like and appreciate a pint or two of proper ale

[Hertsblue]

Sounds like the club I attend Hertblue.

One historical table at one end of the hall and GW and all its derivatives taking up 90% of the tables. The old fogeys crammed around the historical table while everyone under the age of 40 is playing something fantasy related.

Personally I dont care as the 10% I game with have good personal hygeine, know what a toothbrush looks like and appreciate a pint or two of proper ale

Yeah, and they don't screech like banshees. 

[Luddite]

Don't underestimate the power of PC/console games too.

I bought my nephews into 40k, but they didn't stick with it - mainly due to their interest in computer games.  This may be a reason why there are fewer youngsters at the tabletop?

But i support the pattern generally elucidated previously, and i think its certainly a pattern i've seen/experienced:

8-16yrs     GW
16-26yrs   Beer, women, Uni, adult life establishment
26+yrs      Back into 'Wargames' (generally derisive of GW)

The thing about GW though is that they are pretty much the only company out their recruiting youngsters into 'analogue' gaming. 

Love/hate/both the so called 'evil empire', what other route do kids have into the wargames hobby? 

What other company, organisation, or club(?) is running systematic recruitment of the next generation of wargamers?

Pendraken's sort of 'old school' in its approach and business model isn't it?  Its a figure maker and nothing more. 

So many new starts now seem to follow the GW model of combining rules, IP, and figures into a proprietory product package so often resisted by older (and more crotchety) gamers/grognards.

The benefit of the proprietory model is that you as a company/organisation CAN actively go out and 'recruit' young gamers to your cause as you can hand everything to them on a plate.  Its far harder without that model to establish and engage new players isn't it?

'Doing everything yourself' requires a lot more 'buy in' and effort from players who may not yet have decided that this is the hobby for them...

Does it matter?

Do we want to leave a 'legacy' of a vibrant hobby to the next generation? 

I guess sellers want a continuing consumer base, but old players?

Interesting topic...

[sebigboss79]

You want to have another route into the hobby. Indded tough as no other retailer has high street outlets. Independent retailers seldom ahve a huge variety. Besides GW just the usual suspects in forms of PP and BF.

But there are alternatives. I game (Urban War) in the local retailer and the game catches interest. I game 3mm scenarios and catch interest. I play with Pendrakens I catch interest.

Hence it is a matter of exposure on one hand and how that interest gets cultivated on the other. I let others generally join in my games giving them tactical advice of exactly WHY they should not move their CC specialist directly into LOS of enemy elite snipers etc.

I further believe it is the "older" players that should be looked at. Not only do they have the cash BUT also they do not randomly switch their interest to PC games, new women ... every other day. So you have a quite stable consumer base and can top up with younger gamers to make a quick sale.

[Luddite]

I suppose if there wwre some sort of 'national gaming guild' or something, dedicated to promoting wargaming, and with branches throughout the country capable of supporting after school clubs etc., we might have a chance.

Untill then (i.e. never), the young are stuck with GW's 'The Hobby'.

[Leon]

I'd really like to be able to bring in the younger players, but it requires a whole load of time and effort which we just don't have.  You also need the full package of rules / figures / scenery, and to an extent nice shiny packaging to catch their eye. 

I do wonder sometimes if there's anyway to tie in to local schools as part of the history curriculum.  As the eldest works his way through the school years, I'm keeping an eye on what subjects he's doing and whether there's anything we can help with.  A couple of weeks ago they were building papier-mache pyramids, so I gave him a few camels from the Sudan range to take into class!  I don't know how much the military aspect of history gets covered anymore though?  When I was at school, we seemed to cover the political aspects a whole lot more than anything else, especially with WW1 and Vietnam.

One of the other area's which always gives me hope is the popularity of things like Warcraft and Call of Duty.  Despite them being computer games, they are still bringing people into RPG and combat games.  If only 0.01% of those gamers took that interest into tabletop gaming, we'd probably double the number of wargamers in the UK overnight.

[ryman1]

I think it all comes down to exposure, when I was a boy the nearest thing I got to seeing historical models was the imperial war museum displays.
Like most kids I played with toy soldiers but saw them as just that - something to line up and knock down and but for a chance sighting of practical wargamer in a newsagents with a napoleonic cover (having just watched waterloo), I'd never had known there was a dedicated hobby.

At the same time I was well aware of D&D, some friends had the figures but it didn't interest me, games workshop was on the high street but again, no interest.
What I'm saying is - there is potentially a greater number of potential historical gamers/collectors amongst the kids of today than adults actually in the hobby now, they just need to know that historical gaming exists.

So, how to approach it and draw it new blood?, again it comes down to exposure; if each of us was willing to pin a notice for a local historical gaming club in the nearest library, or if manufacturers were willing to send a small selection of figures and perhaps a catalogue to any local schools they know of with an after school hobby club - who knows?, it might pique the interest of a kid who likes lining them up and knocking them down after watching gladiator/zulu etc, but can't stand the idea of eldars chasing ork boyz through a cavern of lost souls.

If there's one thing I think would make a marked difference, it has to be conventions, suppose south london warlords offered 10 free tickets to 10 local schools/cadet centres etc, that's 100 potential recruits, it's a case of catching them at the right time ( my brother went to a car show as a kid and now he's a mechanic and hooked on them).

That's my two pence worth, we just have to let them know we're here.

cheers

[Rob]

If there's one thing I think would make a marked difference, it has to be conventions, suppose south london warlords offered 10 free tickets to 10 local schools/cadet centres etc, that's 100 potential recruits, it's a case of catching them at the right time ( my brother went to a car show as a kid and now he's a mechanic and hooked on them).

A very good idea I think.

When I was looking at the possibilities of wargames in my teens I didn't consider things like painting and basing. I went to investigate the hobby at the "Worlds" which were then held in Notts and was completely blown away with the tables full of beautifully painted armies. An immediate convert.


Cheers Rob 

[Leon]

If there's one thing I think would make a marked difference, it has to be conventions, suppose south london warlords offered 10 free tickets to 10 local schools/cadet centres etc, that's 100 potential recruits, it's a case of catching them at the right time ( my brother went to a car show as a kid and now he's a mechanic and hooked on them).

That could be a really good idea actually.  I'd quite happily give out some free tickets for Smoggycon to schools if they were interested in coming along.  I might ask at the eldest's school and see if they'd be up for it.

[Nosher]

Trouble is we live in an era where instant gratfication is king.

Why spend a small fortune buying an army

Three months painting it

Two hours planning which rule set and scenario to play

Half an hour setting up a game

Four hours playing the game

Two hours debating why you lost again and what you'll do differently next time

Half an hour putting eveything away

Half an hour driving the twenty or so miles home from your 'local' club

Another hour with a beer pondering why you lost again and what you'll do differently next time

Five hours restless sleep worrying over how you might have misinterpreted the LOS rule

A week pondering if the army you spent 3 months painting is actually any good and fretting over why your opponents army looks better and he finished it in half the time

OR

Plug in and Play

[petercooman]

...

OR

Plug in and Play

Now i play video games too, not so much as wargaming but still like it. There is just one thing that makes me more satisfied when playing wargames than playing pc games, and that is the pride i can take when i can see my army on the table and know i have gone through most of the steps you just summed up, and it is an army I created, it is unique, two may look the same, but they are always different.

Problem with kids these days, they have so darn much, and they have to do soooo little to get it, that they don't realize the joy of building something yourself anymore.

Real life example, a collegue of mine showed me a video he made with his phone of his 3 year old making puzzles on an ipad. The lil lad put on the ipad , started puzzling, got bored, just put off the ipad..
I jokingly asked him if he could still make a normal puzze too. He thought i was being serious and sadly the answer was no. See what i mean? They are jused to just dragging their finger over the screen, and when it coms to matching the pieces putting them togheter and finishing soething they fail. They lost the sense of creating something from scratch.

Sadly it's the same in real life. Just look at the army and the news a while back about the medals given for remote drone control. My grandfather fought with the belgium "brigade piron" in the second world war, he never got any medals, and he didn't feel sorry he did. But he had to go into batte himself, carry his equipment, march , run, face enemy fire and see the horors of war up close. Now ty just have to fly a bot, and probably find it normal they get a medal for it. (not saying anything about the other branches of the military off course, i have the greatest of respect for the ones who put their life at risk)


(also if anybody is interested, heres a good site about the brigade piron, taht includes all the names of the soldiers.If you scroll  down, you will see "Cooman Lodewijk, who was my grandfather:  http://www.brigade-piron.be/noms_c_nl.html )

[Techno]

I think it's the 'creative' side that appeals to most folk that come into the hobby, as Peter indicates.
I've got a handful of video games for the PSP, which I quite enjoy playing from time to time....But they pall after a while (to me) and get rather boring, because I either get too competent at them and they're not a challenge any more....Or just the opposite. I'm totally hopeless at them and get completely frustrated.

It is such a shame that our younger 'devotees' only see GWs products as worth investigating...But that's down to the marketing I guess....Plus, I believe, peer pressure.
But the more folk the EE get interested in the hobby, the more will eventually leave the 'Dark Side' and see the Light.

One other point that I think someone mentioned earlier.
History lessons NEVER fired my enthusiasm for the subject when I was in my teens. (A very dry and uninteresting period ...for me.)...Now I want to know EVERYTHING.
Which is why I love this forum.

Cheers - Phil.

[Serotonin]

Im intent on warping my kids brains and making them wargamers, especially historical ones. My 6yr old has already painted a couple of figures and although we havent played a full wargame yet we made a rule set up to play with some Roman gladiators and he also likes playing Battlelore (a HYW/fantasy board wargame).

He's exposed to history through school, and so far Ive been impressed with how they teach it. Ive also been impressed with the TV (and book) series Horrible Histories which really seems to bring stories from hisotry to life often in a gruesome and amusing way. I laughed like a drain at their re-enactment of Agincourt which saw the French knights buried up to their necks in mud.