Advice on 10mm Undercoating

[sixsideddice]

Hi,

May I ask for a bit of advice please?

I am still a bit shaky painting these small fellows, but seeing all the great things you do with them inspires me endlessly. I`ll never be able to match anything like the amazing effects you all seem to be able to achieve, but I can but try.

Undercoating.... I always spray mine white, but I notice most the tips I see seem to go for black, is this because it helps shadowing, or is it acceptable to stick with my white - which helps my poor old eyes no end?

Cheers in advance,

Steve.

[lentulus]

I prime black because if I find some nook or cranny hard to get to it really does not matter, it just kind of disappears as a shadow.

I also dry brush with gray before I start serious painting to help clarify the detail.

"or is it acceptable to stick with my white"

Nope, sorry, the Painting branch of the Though Police will be by to pick up you figures  

[goat major]

Steve - there's no right or wrong answer and its down to personal taste.

Black offers some advantages in that (as Lentulus says) it fills in the gaps/crannies much better than white, it gives a nice definition between your colours. You can also use it for deep shade - though i prefer not to. The main disadvantage is that your colours will look less bright and in a smaller scale you probably want brighter. For the same reason you often need more than one coat to get proper colour coverage. It is also a bit more difficult to spot detail with black i find.

I switched from white to black a few years ago and generally wouldnt go back but there are probably as many people out there who would say the opposite.!

I would do some test figures and see how you get on.

[Captain Verbeek]

I typically use a black undercoat as this allows you to leave the black inbetween your block colors and lets the fig "pop" per the Foundary, Kevin Dallimore Method.  However I have also base-coated black and immediately dry-brushed the entire model in a dark brown, this allows you to pick out the detail a bit, plus it sets up a nice base for the flesh, leather and wood which make up the majority of my figures.  For my Sudan stuff I have started base coating with a dark brown, I guess a natural evolution for me, it lets me skip a step with the brown dry-brush and I still leave it at the edges were colors are seperated and it works almost as well as black and everyone in the desert is a bit dusty anyway.  My 10mm painting tutorial shows the black/brown dry-brush technique

http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=86.0

link about half-way down this thread.

and a look at the brown undercoat up-close in this link.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Tz47CVXu2cc/S3odL4la80I/AAAAAAAAArQ/5MuzHUt0vHA/s1600-h/Brits+up-close.jpg

[sixsideddice]

Nope, sorry, the Painting branch of the Though Police will be by to pick up you figures 

HAHA, I`ll have to set up a system of stooges to bang on the wall and warn me when the Police come to raid my collection of undercoated metals

Seriously, thanks guys.

I am aware that (on this small scale) a black might make the finished results look a wee bit dark, especially after inking; but I`m guessing a great many of the incredible photos of 10mm miniatures I`m seeing online are testimony to the fact this needn`t be a problem... if you have the skill to make the figures shine out, so to speak. But I do doubt my skills a bit I`m afraid, and probably with good reason 

However, I have been persuaded to chance black for a while simply because of the ability it will give me to mask the hard to get at bits, and may aid my inability to focus on creating the detail through a steady and confident hand and eye.

I`ll let you know how I get on, don`t laugh 

Steve

[Captain Verbeek]

don't worry, I have seen excellent results in 10mm with a black base coat and simply blocking in the main colors, shirts, pants flesh with no highlights, dry-brushing or shading just a nice base and mass.  If you have a 100 small Romans painted in block fashion it still looks amazing.

[sixsideddice]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Captain Verbeek, I will endeavour to make them worthy of the table  

Yes, the mess effect can look stunning. However, I`m going for individual bases (round 1 cent coins) because I want that ECW & Monmouth Rebellion `individualisic` look you normally only associate with 28mm... and bigger... miniatures.

Lately, I`m attempting more and more to use my 10mm metal buddies just like I would their 28mm brothers and sisters; instead of the enmasse feel I often seem to encounter with this scale.

Actually, it was the link to the following thread which inspired me the most.

http://javieratwar.blogspot.com/2010/03/mordheim-using-whaa.html

[MooseDontBounce]

I've always like Tamyia Panzer Gray for my undercoat.  A little softer then black.

[Sandinista]

I tend to undercoat with whichever colour will predominate on finished figure

[Zbigniew]

I have found undercoating black most suitable for my style of painting. As someone said earlier do not make highlights in this scale. This only produce kind of a mess.
And I always use brighter shade of colour then adviced in uniform guides. For example I paint British redcoats almost orange shade of red. Ofcourse these are my findings after many failures and spending money on unnecessary amount of paints like 6 various shades of red 

[clibinarium]

If you go with a black undercoat, don't be afraid to go with bold colours to offset the darkening effect of the black. I tend to just use the paint thicker than I would with larger figures, my SYW Austrians were done in white with only one coat.
When I get time I am going to experiment with using grey undercoat for AWI french, washed with army painter to get black in the recesses. My first test with homemade wash was a bit too dirty looikng for my satisfaction; anyone else tried thi?

Highlights can work in 10mm, but they have to contrast more than those on bigger figures, and they have to be limited to the larger areas (say the coat or trousers only) and possibily the flesh to give definition to the face

[nikharwood]

I'd agree - there's a need to be bold with 10mm...

I have to mention that Army Painter's 'dips' are no more than woodstain...you can save yourself a whole bunch of money by going to B&Q or Wilkinson's & getting a tin of their own-brand satin/matt woodstain...it'll cost you roughly 25% of what AP will cost you...no, really...

I always do highlights in 10mm - I think they work, even at the subtle end of the spectrum [eg camo schemes etc] - but I do tend to start a couple of tones lighter.

[Captain Verbeek]

I do not like dips on white, I would paint the dip into the recesses before I would dip the figs.  Again dark brown works pretty well as a base coat when painting white.  but Cil is a great painter so I would take his advice.

[nikharwood]

Too right 

I've not used 'dips' at all...just know that you can get 'em cheaper if that's what you want to do 

[clibinarium]

The effect I am thinking of is something like what's seen in this pic;



(Pic is from Black Hat's shader page, by the way. Credit where credit's due)

The intent was to show the shader easily against the white undercoated figure, but it stuck me that it might work for French Infantry; the 1779 regulation uniform is very white. With this doing the shade, just hightlight white and paint in the colured bits; the black recesses of the shader giving the separation that the solid black undercoat usually would. I agreed painting on rather than dipping would be better.
The key would be getting the shader not to dirty the raise areas and be pretty slid in the recesses, combing the good points of black and white undercoats. The rightmost is too heavy (dirtying the raised parts) the leftmost a bit too weak. The middle one is almost right, but the worng colour (so not quite Goldilocks).
Maybe I'm asking too much of the idea?

[FierceKitty]

The Gemahlpo (Teutophiles can work it out) will be breaking my door down too. Though I used to use black undercoats when I was a 15mm man, I prefer white in 10mm. I find it's easier to get a bright, clear, even coat of pigment over it. This may well have something to do with my ageing eyes, and I don't pretend to paint as well as some can.
   What the hell, Tokugawa Ieyasu was wounded in action at 73, wasn't he?

[goat major]

I always do highlights and I do think it works, but as Clib said you do need to get a strong contrast. On 28mm figures i would use 3+ colours but on 10mm i tend to use 2 - a shade colour and a highlight colour (skipping the mid-tone). I only tend to use washes on flesh and fur - but still supplement with a highlight. Of course this does take time (which partly removes one of the advantages of 10mm!)

[goat major]

i like this thought. There's a similar technique on the Citadel painting book - i think they call it a guide wash. Its got to be worth an experiment i think.

[sixsideddice]

hehe, maybe he`ll rise from Nikkō Tōshō-gū and come haunt us  

Oh my, all these great ideas, and I just don`t know what to do.

Basically, I used to paint a lot in 25/28mm. So much so, the very thought of how many minis I`ve painted over the years scares the heck out of me now (over 25000 I`m guessing); and then I got lazy, and started painting for the table - just passable standard. But since taking up 10mm and seeing just what CAN be done with these marvellous little guys, I`ve become determined not to let the team down if I can help it... so want to make a decent attempt to get this right lol.

My 10mm fantasy figures are passable, perhaps, in a bad light after a few drinks. But I`m painting 10mm English Civil War(s), Monmouth Rebellion and Jacobite wars from scratch, so have an opportunity to do good (there`s always something really nice about starting from the beginning with a new era. Clean metal, and good intensions â€" gamers`bliss).

Hmmmm, well I went out and bought a can of matt black undercoat spray yesterday, so will try in out on the London Argyll Militia first and see how that works out for me; if it’s a disaster, I`ll slink back to white undercoating and take it from there.

I`ll post the photo results when the first Foot are ready for action.


Cheers guys

Steve

[FierceKitty]

I wish someone would produce tartan paint for ECW highlanders!