Request for Help for Research Sites : WWII North Africa

[Avalon]

Hi,

I'm a relatively new member and having spent the last couple of weeks trying to research the unit make up and equipment for the 8th army in North Africa circa 1940-1943, I can find the division and regimental lists, but when I delve into the detail they don’t give the, actual equipment lists or unit formations.

Any good sites or resources would be gratefully appreciated.

TIA.

[Hertsblue]

Try this one, Avalon.

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Great-Britain/British-Army-1942.htm

[Avalon]

Thanks Herts blue, I'll try it when I get home as its blocked by the company firewall.

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

This is a pretty complex area.

On organisation, for example, there were theatre variations for the Middle East from the standard War Estabshment and I'm not sure we know what they all were in detail (checking the HQ documents at the UK national archives may be the answer but it's not a project I'd willingly do for a while).  However for Gary Kennedy's bayonet strength site (http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/British/british_army.htm) is pretty good and he's done a lot of research.  Mark Bevis produces micromark organisation guides which are pretty useful - one source is Wargames Vault http://zkluroztcttctzorulkz.wargamevault.com/index.php?cPath=5930 .

The equipment in use by a particular unit, especially armour, was subject to regular (and irregular) change.  A useful source (book) is Benghazi Handicap which is written for Command Decision but has lots of solid information.  As with anything it's not 100% accurate - as I've read more (eg war diaries, regimental histories) I've started to find errors of detail (for example which of the 8th Hussars squadrons was the cruiser squadron in August 1940).  However, neither war daries nor regimental accounts are necessarily completely correct either.    There's still debate over the exact split of 2 pdr portee and 37mm Bofors portee between units for example. 

If you have any specific questions you could always ask here.

Regards

Edward

[fred.]

For the period you are looking at there was a huge range of tanks used, some only around for a small period, others for most of the 3 years you mention.  Then as far as formations went the various armoured regiments and brigades were swapped around between divisons and corps both before and during operations.

This web page of mine gives an illustration of what 3RTR were equipped with during their time in the desert http://www.kerynne.com/games/BritishDesert.html During their time their they had 3 refits with 8 main types of tank.

What kind of scale actions are you looking at representing / what rules are you going to be playing ?

Infantry is probably more straight forward, they used carriers and assorted lorries (both British and captured), the 25 pdr was the field gun, and anti tank guns started as 2pdrs and changed to 6pdrs later in the campaign.

[Steve J]

The following couple fo sites are well worth a look.

http://www.afrikakorps.org/
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/main.htm

[Rob]

This site is pretty good for organisation and actual equipment levels.

Where you see a symbol with a shadow click on it and it will take you doen to the next level of detail:

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/500_eto/42-10-23_north-africa.html

Cheers, Rob 

[Avalon]

I've not really settled on a set of rules, I'm just looking to build up the miniatures first then look around, the local wargames group is South London Warlords at Dulwich, and was going to pop along to the next meeting.

Some of the posts above have confirmed something I've suspected for the last week, that the units within the 8th Army were pretty fluid in terms of equipment and during the dessert campaigns, with some units spit to reinforce others. 

I'm particularly interested in the units that made up the 7th division, though accurate numbers dont exist I was hoping to build up either the Bays or Hussars to start with and maybe an Artilary/infantry regiment as well to cover bases.

I  like the .kerynne.com site it confirms a couple of my thoughts about using a dark sand base for painting, though i'd have thought the camoflage would have been more beige/sand coloured than green.

The other links sadly are blocked by the companies firewall.

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

...
Some of the posts above have confirmed something I've suspected for the last week, that the units within the 8th Army were pretty fluid in terms of equipment and during the dessert campaigns, with some units spit to reinforce others. 

I'm particularly interested in the units that made up the 7th division, though accurate numbers dont exist I was hoping to build up either the Bays or Hussars to start with and maybe an Artilary/infantry regiment as well to cover bases.

....

7 Armoured Division had numerous armoured regiments pass through it during 1940-43.  In terms of regiments that operated with the various brigades of the division there were a number of Hussar regiments (3, 7, but the Bays were not part of 7 AD at all.  In terms of units that appear regularly in the order of battle 5 RTR and 8 Hussars might fit (both being in 4 Armoured Brigade for Crusader [Stuarts] and for the Gazala battles [Stuart and Grant mix] with 3 RTR).   4AB were supported by (integrated by Gazala) 1 Kings Royal Rifle Corps (motor battalion) and by 2 Royal Horse Artillery (Crusader) and 1 RHA (Gazala).   

When you say 'accurate numbers don't exist' what do you mean?  The starting strengths in terms of tanks of the units concerned before an operation are known although sometimes the exact mix of equipment may not be 100% clear. 

Armoured units were seldom split (an exception was in the case of the 1940 battles where 3 Hussars and 2 RTR swapped a squadron in order to create a mix of light tanks and cruisers in each regiment).  What did tend to happen was that short term composite regiments were formed of surviving tanks but these would usually exist for a few days before being destroyed or the action ending, at which point the constituent elements would return to the Delta to be re-equipped.  However a squadron might be detached for a task eg to cover a minefield.  Armoured cars often operated with squadrons widely separated and motor battalions often allocated individual companies to support armoured regiments. 

Regards

Edward

[fred.]

As kustenjaeger says the info is available - but it can take some time to put together the details, and your initial query covers such a broad time frame and a whole Army that the answer is very broad. Focusing on a regiment or two makes things much more manageable.

One of the reasons I asked about rules, is to do with scale - my WWII forces are organised with 1 stand of figures = 1 platoon of real troops. This means a battalion of infantry is 12-15 stands, and a tank regiment is a 8-12 tanks. With appropriate artillery support. If you are doing a lower level, so 1:1 figure scale you will be dealing with platoons and companies not battalions and brigades, so you will want less support weapons.

[Avalon]

Thank you for the correct kustenjaeger, its much appreciated, and my apologies I was going on memory of some of the formations of the 8th Army, and quoted the parts of the 1st Armoured division, rather than the 7th (my memories getting worse).

When I say accurate figures, various sources seem to contradict each other in terms of unit strength, for example one resource states the on-hand strength of the 22nd Armoured brigade was 42 Mk II crusaders, and 8 Mk III's, 57 Grants and 19 Stuarts, yet in the unit break down they have 5th RTR and 4th county londonderry with a combined total of 46 Mk II's, and 4 attached to the HQ, a total of 50 MkII's, so I suspect some of the MKII's are actually MKIII's.   While the Grants and Stuart numbers match.

Just little things like that that muddy the waters, and confuse newbies like me.

Hence the need for me to do some serious research on things especially using the links provided above as well as looking for books on the various engagements in that region, not to mention discussions like this.

[fred.]

As you have discovered real tank return numbers are often far less detailed than the wargamer would like - German returns often only list PzIV kurz and PzIV lang, to differentiate between the short 75mm and long 75s - but don't mention what model of PzIV. Bearing in mind all these numbers are snapshots, and the actual available strength could be different, and as soon as battle was joined then things changed rapidly.

Sites like bayonetstrength are very useful for understanding the paper strength of units - which can then help you to understand tank return numbers, there are lots of books and websites out there, but it will take some putting together, and can be a hobby in its own right. I'd definitely suggest starting with 1 unit at 1 point in time and working out from there otherwise the amount of information will swamp you. I've mainly looked at later period organisation - when things were far more standard - in the desert there were many different ideas about the correct structure of formations, so divisions did change quite a lot.

[Avalon]

Fred,

I think thats a wise move, I've ordered a couple of the BKC army packs off Pendraken (BCK9 and BCK19) as a starting point, so was thinking of maybe starting with one of the Armoured regiments (probably the 1st RTR) in the 7th Armoured Division.

As you say the research is a hobby in itself, and something that really appeals to me.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I have to agree with these posts, actual tank returns are interesting but you will find it easier to follow the paper TOE. Could  suggest joining the TOE yahoo group.

There is a booklet put out by Baron Publishing called Desert Tracks by William Platz, which gives a digest of the offical returns for all the major desert actions, including tac markings and cammo schemes, but even this has errors.

In essance at Alemain the regiments were :-

a) All Stuart - 2 in 7th Armoured
b) Mixed Grant - 1 Squadron, Sherman - 1 Squadron, Crusader, 1 Squadron
c) Mixed Sherman - 2 Squadrons, Crusader 1 Squadron
d) All Sherman.

Regimental Command tanks could be of any matching type, although most seem to have been either Grant or Sherman as there was more working space.

Squadron size offically was 15 for all but Grants, where it was 12. About 1/3rd of Crudasers are III, these were not used as troop command vehicles due to turret crew workload. The bulk of replacements would be III's as well I suspect, but you cant make any hard and fast rule on that.

The Stuarts were rapidly replaced by Shermans, and most Grants and Crusaders were gone by Early 43.

IanS

[Avalon]

Thanks for the pointers Ian.

Especially the book ,but it looks like its out of print.  So I might need to try the British library.