Iranian list and T54s etc

[flamingpig0]

There seems to little consistency with the various T55s derivatives  in the Iranian list when  it comes to  AP/AT values- it looks a little odd.


Type 59 (ZTZ59, Soviet T-54A copy)4/80 4/70
T-54B 3/80 4/60
T-55A (upgraded)4/110 3/90

[sultanbev]

I can't answer for the stats, what I have been able to find is that Iranian T-54/55/Type 59 didn't have BM8 APDS rounds for their 100mm guns, nor any fancy Chinese FSAPDS, during the Cold War at least. So they would have been on bog standard BR412D APCBC and BK5M HEAT rounds. They didn't upgrade their T-55 series tanks until well into the 1990s, so no fancy fire control updates either.

The Iranian entry
T-55A (upgraded) 130 AFV 25 4/110 3/90 4 4 -/9 1982+ R/S2/IR
is very peculier. There was no contemporary literature on an upgraded Iranian T-55 during the Cold War that I have (yes, I've been collecting tank data that long) and none I've seen since. A 200m gain in anti-tank range for a 25% drop in penetrating performance doesn't make a lot of sense either. I wonder what the upgrade was?

So they all should be the same firepower stats, whatever the baseline Soviet vehicle is for the BK5M HEAT round (38cm penetration/90*/2000m 1960).
Looking at the Soviet list, I'm guessing its the A/T = 4/60, the dates for the different variants don't seem to distinguish between the BK5 HEAT (28cm/90*/2000m 1952) and BK5M HEAT (1960), nor do I think they should.
The A/P factors in the Soviet list for the 100mm D10 however seem to be all over the place, 3/80, 4/90, 4/70, 4/80, when they are all be the same shell and rangefinders. The same gun in the M1944 ATG and Su-100 has 4/100, with even less fire control, so I'm presuming that range difference is more to do with constricted ergonomics of the tanks compared to the ATG and SPG. I'd plum for the 4/80 as it is a chunky 35lb shell compared to 20lb for an 85mm.

[Big Insect]

I can't answer for the stats, what I have been able to find is that Iranian T-54/55/Type 59 didn't have BM8 APDS rounds for their 100mm guns, nor any fancy Chinese FSAPDS, during the Cold War at least. So they would have been on bog standard BR412D APCBC and BK5M HEAT rounds. They didn't upgrade their T-55 series tanks until well into the 1990s, so no fancy fire control updates either.

The Iranian entry
T-55A (upgraded) 130 AFV 25 4/110 3/90 4 4 -/9 1982+ R/S2/IR
is very peculier. There was no contemporary literature on an upgraded Iranian T-55 during the Cold War that I have (yes, I've been collecting tank data that long) and none I've seen since. A 200m gain in anti-tank range for a 25% drop in penetrating performance doesn't make a lot of sense either. I wonder what the upgrade was?

So they all should be the same firepower stats, whatever the baseline Soviet vehicle is for the BK5M HEAT round (38cm penetration/90*/2000m 1960).
Looking at the Soviet list, I'm guessing its the A/T = 4/60, the dates for the different variants don't seem to distinguish between the BK5 HEAT (28cm/90*/2000m 1952) and BK5M HEAT (1960), nor do I think they should.
The A/P factors in the Soviet list for the 100mm D10 however seem to be all over the place, 3/80, 4/90, 4/70, 4/80, when they are all be the same shell and rangefinders. The same gun in the M1944 ATG and Su-100 has 4/100, with even less fire control, so I'm presuming that range difference is more to do with constricted ergonomics of the tanks compared to the ATG and SPG. I'd plum for the 4/80 as it is a chunky 35lb shell compared to 20lb for an 85mm.

Much of this comes from a particular 'source' who contributed a lot of information to both the Iranian CWCI & II lists. The Iran/Iraq War is not a speciality of mine, so I (probably like others before me) bowed to his apparently more specialist knowledge.
It is probably worth going back to the original CWC1 Iran/Iraq lists as a base line.
As I am already aware, despite the lengthy & somewhat tortuous CWCII 'continuity' project some of the Soviet stats still need standardizing further. This will happen, in time. But as Sultanbev suggests, if in doubt, fall back on the basic Soviet stats in this case.
Cheers
Mark

[flamingpig0]

The Fox armoured  car is more than a little  dubious in the Iranian list too

[Big Insect]

Iran was listed historically as having ordered and received a small number of British FV721 Fox reconnaissance/armoured cars (around 20 vehicles) under the regime of the Shah prior to the 1979 Iranian Revolution, alongside other British hardware like the FV101 Scorpion.

Whether they were then subsequently used is unknown. However, I'd suspect that unlike more complex AFVs, these are more likeky to have seen some sort of active service. Even if only in internal security type roles.

NB: 70 were also exported to Malawi & 50 to Nigeria.

Cheers
Mark

[sultanbev]

For those wanting to delve more into Iranian AFVs, Oryx have a list, most with photo links, that includes an impressive variety of prototypes that never saw service.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2020/01/the-oryx-handbook-of-iranian-fighting.html

The https://i.postimg.cc/V6KLp86F/sayyad.jpg would have been cool, an M113C&R modified to a Spartan clone with TOW launcher, and the Agherab wheeled tank which looks like someone stuffed the gun from a PT-76 into an oversized M8 Greyhound turret and dumped it onto a BTR-60 hull.
https://i.postimg.cc/htdHRnKc/fnv-KVz5.jpg.

A what-if field day!
Talking of prototypes, @Big Insect, was it general policy to leave prototypes out of lists?

[Big Insect]

For those wanting to delve more into Iranian AFVs, Oryx have a list, most with photo links, that includes an impressive variety of prototypes that never saw service.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2020/01/the-oryx-handbook-of-iranian-fighting.html

The https://i.postimg.cc/V6KLp86F/sayyad.jpg would have been cool, an M113C&R modified to a Spartan clone with TOW launcher, and the Agherab wheeled tank which looks like someone stuffed the gun from a PT-76 into an oversized M8 Greyhound turret and dumped it onto a BTR-60 hull.
https://i.postimg.cc/htdHRnKc/fnv-KVz5.jpg.

A what-if field day!
Talking of prototypes, @Big Insect, was it general policy to leave prototypes out of lists?

Oh yes ... we have enough trouble just verifying AFV's that were actually used, and as most prototypes (generally) only had a very few actual vehicles (often which never saw action) I elected to leave these out.
Once (when & if) a CWCII unit calculator is created, then those interested in recreating said prototypes can play away to their hearts content     

[sultanbev]

So, right there are four tanks to remove from the Iraqi list:
T–55 QM (105mm rifled guns,)
T-55 QM2 (125mm guns,)
Type 72Z (125mm gun)
Type 69-QM (125mm gun)
According to Jane's up to 2003 at least, which is a little bit more accurate than a dead link on Wikipedia, all these were prototypes.
The T-55 Enigma was the only upgraded tank encountered in GW1, and even then it was only as CHQ tanks, so in effect you'd only get 1 per 9 T-55 fielded.

The sole battalion of T-72M1 Lion of Babylon tanks fielded didn't have ERA, in fact no Iraqi service tanks had ERA other than two T-72s in 2003, and one of them was a T-72 M1975 Ural.

The 3 battalions worth of bog-standard T-72 M1975 Ural received in 1981 didn't have laser rangefinder nor composite armour. In the Soviet lists the A/T factors don't seem to differentiate between those without laser rangefinders and those with, so maybe a mute point.

The bulk of the T-72 were the T-72M from 1983, 900 or so of them, with laser ranger but no composite armour in the turret, even though it was there in the hull. However all were limited to 1960s ammo BM9, BM12 and some BM15 penetrators, making them all A/T= 5/80 I would have thought, as the most common BM12 were about the same as the T-62 rounds. 
I see the stabilisation has been removed from the Iraqi tanks, which does make sense as they tended to fire from the halt. They did have the stabilisers though, so you could make them S3.

[flamingpig0]

So, right there are four tanks to remove from the Iraqi list:
T–55 QM (105mm rifled guns,)
T-55 QM2 (125mm guns,)
Type 72Z (125mm gun)
Type 69-QM (125mm gun)

Now I have the technology I have  exterminated the creepy things from the pdf. Next, and as  an act of existential rebellion, I am going to add T34s to the Ethiopian list

[sultanbev]

an act of existential rebellion, I am going to add T34s to the Ethiopian list

Go for it!