Out of nowhere- New Goths

[FierceKitty]

Shameful confession: I have used Mongols as proxy Huns.

[Ben Waterhouse]

Excellent as always Clib

[Elliesdad]

   

All together now:

We want Huns, We want Huns  ....     

👍 Yes indeed, we most certainly want Huns 😉

[FierceKitty]

Why does they wants Hunnses for, Precious? Are they a killer army? Are they nice as fish?

[Corso]

These look great, definitely interested in where this range heads

[DecemDave]

Shameful confession: I have used Mongols as proxy Huns.

Well needs must.
As long as you filed off all the stirrups.      

[fsn]

I was quite excited, but DecemDave has put me off. 

[clibinarium]

Thanks all; the kind words mean a lot because these were hard work, well, the cavalry more than infantry.

To address some points raised-

Might add heavier armoured horse by converting the greens once these are cast.
Coffin shields; I'm in the camp that rejects them. It is possible that its a misinterpretation of a long hexagonal shield. I doubt there's much appetite for separate shields in 10mm; with these figures a lot of time is spent integrating the shield and filling in the voids (its a bit of a design headache), so the most that could be done would be to pry them off the greensand repalce with attached hexagonal shields and cast again. Not sure I'm up for that though.
Dracos- they'll be the existing ones from the LR range.
Huns- they might be the next range to tackle, but they are exceptionally hard to get an idea of what they actually looked like. I've been researching for a while now and have some interesting images, but of all the subjects I've ever looked into they are the most obscure.

[Big Insect]

Coffin shields; I'm in the camp that rejects them. It is possible that its a misinterpretation of a long hexagonal shield. I doubt there's much appetite for separate shields in 10mm; with these figures a lot of time is spent integrating the shield and filling in the voids (its a bit of a design headache), so the most that could be done would be to pry them off the greens and replace with attached hexagonal shields and cast again. Not sure I'm up for that though.

I've now spoken to my chum, who's a Goth aficionado (published books on the subject etc.), and he's confirmed that the coffin shield is a misinterpretation in Funcken's Ancient and Medieval book from the late 1960's. It is based on a misinterpretation of a grave find from the Crimea. The archaeologists used the metal rim reinforcement to reconstruct the shape, but wrongly.

The link below might be of interest - to those who are interested 

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=honorius+emperor+mosaic&imgurl=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GHwvSyhWIAATmQ4.jpg&imgrefurl=https://twitter.com/CatImperator/status/1767129337365778494&docid=RNuZDHztutAa6M&tbnid=nRE7I3Krt6RiPM&vet=12ahUKEwjErf7MzOOHAxXSXUEAHb7OCCkQM3oECFgQAA..i&w=800&h=810&hcb=2&itg=1&ved=2ahUKEwjErf7MzOOHAxXSXUEAHb7OCCkQM3oECFgQAA&sfr=vfe&source=sh/x/im/can/1

Its a mosaic of the emperor Honorius, shown heroically nude. The interesting part is the trophy of arms at his feet, the crossed shields. They are either conventional shields from a mosaic artists pattern book, or they are showing trophies from wars successfully completed in Honorius' reign.  If so, they would likely be Gothic shields because the big victory during Honorius' reign was the destruction of Radagaisus' invasion by Stilicho.  If they are Gothic, and reasoning holds they are, then you could (possibly) have the Goths with the six sided Germanic style shield (the one underneath, partly obscured by the oval one). However, my chum would bet on the oval shield with cross as being Gothic, most definitely.

The archaeological reconstruction that the Funcken shield was based on would potentially fit a hexagonal shield much better than a round one. It's perfectly possible that the Goths moved from hexagons to round or oval. As much as anything because:
1). after Adrianople they had lots of Roman equipment available and a quick repainting, even a whitewash, would make all those Roman shields useable.
2). having captured a number of major roman armouries, oval shields were probably available, in quantity.

My friend contacted Funcken about this particular 'coffin' shield back when the book was 1st published, and got a very evasive and unclear reply back. They clearly seemed to know that the 'coffin' shield was not an accurate interpretation. They also mentioned a now destroyed Roman column as 'one of the sources' for that image, but didn't name it. The column was most likely the column of Arcadius in Constantinople (Istanbul).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_of_Arcadius

Originally, the shaft was composed of 21 large carved blocks, with a statue on the top; but only the one at the base now survives. Detail of the shaft's and pedestal's decoration were however recorded in a series of drawings made between 1574 and 1575 and now preserved in the Freshfield Album (Trinity College, Cambridge, UK), which are attributed to the Flemish artist Lambert de Vos. The carvings on the remaining parts of the structure have since been largely obliterated by vandalism, fire and erosion. These carving most probably depicted Visigoth warriors and the shields depicted in the drawings are of the round or oval kind.

NB: the Funcken illustration also shows the Gothic infantryman as being armoured. However, the armour the figure is wearing is taken from a coin from the reign of Alaric II, who was around in 490 to 507 AD, which was copied from Roman coins and is a portrait of a king, so it's unlikely to be what a common soldier was wearing, especially a foot soldier.

So, in short, I think (as does my learned friend) that the 'coffin' shield was just made up.
Early on you might get away with a few long-hexagonal shields for your Goths, but your on safer ground with round or oval ones (or rectangular wicker ones for your Sarmatisized Black Sea Goths - but that's another discussion altogether )

Cheers
Mark

[DecemDave]

I was quite excited, but DecemDave has put me off. 

   I trust not.   Everyone must buy LOTS!  Just scatter in lots of LR codes post Adrianople.  And as Clibinarium initially suggested use them to create multiple Germanic armies .  OR if you want your Goths beardy and coffin shielded, go for it.  Heck I'm the guy whose ECW Royalists have LoA officers because I liked the hairstyles!

Huns- they might be the next range to tackle, but they are exceptionally hard to get an idea of what they actually looked like. I've been researching for a while now and have some interesting images, but of all the subjects I've ever looked into they are the most obscure.

For such a noble cause as a new range, the Society of Ancients forum could help?  Reading suggests some would be quite LR looking in the later stages (looting).  Probably use your Goths as subject peoples.  Main need is your dynamic style brought to a dozen light tribal horse archer poses so they look like a fast moving swarm not a rank of volley fire on horseback. Some on Ponies/Small horses for the earlier ones.  No beards (deliberate scarring is documented?)  Some shaved heads.  Sword side arm. No stirrups.   

[Big Insect]

Some on Ponies/Small horses for the earlier ones.  No beards (deliberate scarring is documented?)  Some shaved heads.  Sword side arm. No stirrups.   

Was artificial cranial deformation also practiced by Hunnic tribes? (although in 10mm that might be a bit pointless)

The 'hun' range could also be extended to include the Hephthalite Huns (more Sassanian/central Asian steppe looking) and Xiongnu (early cataphract and armoured lancer types) - as a thought.

[clibinarium]

I wasn't aware of that image as evidence for gothic shields, my understanding was this was the main support (the weapons in the lower two panels);



This must be the imfamous Funcken; the pattern on the shield is pretty clearly taken from the diptych, but I am not sure how they got that shape. Personally I tend to be pretty cautious of reconstructions if they are more than 20 years old anyway.


My feeling is though that hexagonal shields were possibly used in the earlier years, say the early 3rd century, but the figures need to work well into the 6th century. Given that I had to make an either/or choice, I went with round shields.
This discussion accords with what BI writes- http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=185238
Some conversions with looted Roman gear are a possible addition in the future.

[Scolty]

Absolutely brilliant figures. Nuff said.

[Big Insect]

Absolutely brilliant figures. Nuff said.

I totally agree 

[Corso]

Do we have a store eta yet, I keep returning to this thread...

[Gwydion]

Do we have a store eta yet, I keep returning to this thread...

Stop it!
I've been trying very hard not to ask that question!

[Gwydion]

I didn't mean it!
Any idea of the likely date to go on sale?

[Leon]

It'll likely be 2025 at this point, I'm still working on our March/April projects!

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

 

[Corso]

Now wondering what the March/April projects are...