Norman chain mail and 1066 armour/dress in general

[Heedless Horseman]

'Gunmetal'... dark metallic, probably best for 'look'.
But... was rather surprised to see C16 Border armour in rather 'Brownish' hue. Beeswax or Sheep grease patina!
So...

[Big Insect]

But I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other.

Likewise 

[Big Insect]

'Gunmetal'... dark metallic, probably best for 'look'.
But... was rather surprised to see C16 Border armour in rather 'Brownish' hue. Beeswax or Sheep grease patina!
So...

Might be that C16 trendy 'rust' look

[Ithoriel]

I'd guess the main things that kept metal armour rust free were servants or slaves in the Ancient world, squires and pages in Medieval Europe and so on.

Vinegar, olive oil and elbow grease .... lorica vinaigrette?

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Vinegar, olive oil and elbow grease .... lorica vinaigrette?

Tasty! Does it come with garum?

[Last Hussar]

But it would not have bothered Last Hussar, he can be a bit of a old woman   

Orcs never starts an argument.

Because that would imply he wasn't already in one...

[Gwydion]

Out of interest, genuine question I have no idea, is there a contemporary Roman source for any of the sand/vinegar, sand/oil, sand in a barrel/sack cleaning treatment?
I had a quick google and found the idea repeated a lot but no-one suggested how they know this.
Any pointers?

I take it that's a 'No' then?

[Big Insect]

As a some mail was made with a single solid 'stamped' central ring, to which was attached 4 riveted links, it might have been possible that this type of mail was originally fire-blacked.

That was that it was heated to a temperature that wasn't hot enough to anneal it (or to harden it if quenched) and then quenched in oil. With chemical oils (e.g. petroleum oils) this produces a black-blue sheen. With vegetable oils (most likely in medieval and ancient western Europe) it produces a black-brown sheen (& both stink hideously whilst the process is underway!).
This will (in theory) stop the links & rings from rusting, except where they rub up against each other, as that exposes the iron to the atmosphere.
This quenching technique would not work with butted or soldered links for obvious reasons.

[Gwydion]

Thanks for that.
I sort of assumed some sort of treatment like curing iron cooking pots as a preventative measure - oil coating and heating or the quenching.

It's the idea of rolling it round in barrels of sand+ whatever to clean it that intrigues me.

It's stated so confidently on line that Roman(and medieval) troops cleaned mail in this fashion, but I haven't been able to find a source for this (apart from the fact that modern metalsmiths tumble material with shot in drums). I'm not suggesting it's wrong, but I just wondered if there was a contemporary Roman source, or a medieval one we can extrapolate backwards from.
Or is it one of those things that everyone just 'knows'?

As for painting mail clad figures I'd definitely go for the less shiny finish myself (unless I felt like a Hollywood version - and why not! ).

[Big Insect]

I'll do some research on the sources for medieval armour polishing. I have a few 'learned' sources still from my Company St. George days (although I am not sure that messrs Howe, Embelton and Richards are still alive even).

I'm aware that a lot of what we know about C15th armour production comes from the Nuremburg 'Firework' book.
It talks about water driven hammers and polishing wheels (where oil/fat and pumice were used to polish larger areas of hammered steel), but that was all to do with the initial manufacture, not the ongoing maintenance.
I suspect that the Roman stuff may well be reenactor 'myth'. It's a bit like the extensive and learned piece I saw on a well known Roman reenactment site about how C1st AD Roman helmets were 'spun'. When all the known examples are all hammered and peened out of a solid cast blank. Spinning metal (even bronze) didn't in fact come into existence until the late C14th apparently.

[Gwydion]

Thanks Mark.

[Gwydion]

Okay, tracked down a reference to a medieval indenture of 1344 which appears to suggest the process may have been used:
C W King, The Archaeological Journal 1866 pp79-95
'In the time of Ed III mail armour was  cleaned by rolling it in a barrel with sand probably or emery. See the Dover Castle Inventories  Arch Journal, vol xi pp.382, 386'

And sure enough:
The Archaeolgical Journal vol 11, 1854 p.381 –  Albert Way
'Original Documents – Accounts of the Constables of the Castle of Dovor. Records of the Queen's Remembrancers preserved in the Branch Public Record Office, Carlton Ride.
Indenture dated Dec 20, 17 Edw. III, 1344.'
p.386
'There was also found in the Aula a barrel "pro armaturis rollandis'' Armour of mail was cleaned from rust by a simple process of friction namely by rolling it in a barrel, probably with sand, and this continued in use as late as 1603, as appears by the inventory of Hengrave Hall where was found in the armoury – "one barrel to make clean the shirts of mail and gorgetts". Eastern nations by whom mail is still worn, brighten it, as Sir S Meyrick observes, by shaking it in a sack with bran and sand'. Vinesauf describes the warriors of Coeur de Lion as whirling their hauberks for this purpose- "Rotantur loricae ne rubigine squallescant".'
So not Roman yet, but probably genuine medieval practice. (the Dover indenture doesn't actually mention mail or sand, and it is Mr Way's undocumented explanation that this method was used  that ties it together with the 1603 inventory, but it is looking firmer than a wet finger guess).

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Good stuff there