Arab-Israeli ranges released!

[Leon]

Have found that the IDF used both the Mk.II 57mmL43 6pdr and Mk.IV 57mmL50 6pdr, including ex-Dutch ones, so British models would be fine for the 6pdr. It is clear that the Egyptians used both 6pdr and Russian 57mm ZIS2 even in the same areas.

No worries, I've got the guns here so I'll get those swapped over this week.

Knew you'd be on top of it. Amazing the variety of vehicles that are relevant.

There were quite a few!

[Steve J]

An excellent range there and so, so tempting, given the wide range of vehicles and AFV's that can be fielded .

[fsn]

Indeed. I'm "low tech" and "high tech" variants.

Israeli's with M51's and M3's then Centurions and M113's; Egyptians with T34/85s and BTR somethings then T54/55/62(?) and BMP1.

Gives me 4 alternatives scenarios.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

T54/55 Hi Tech ?

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

You've missed your ultimate match up.
Jordanian Cents vs Israeli Cents (fictional but hell)

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

The Israelis deliberately used M48's and Shermans against the Jordainians to avoid blue on blue, but no doubt Nobby will be doing that.

[kustenjaeger]

Does anyone know if the PK/PKM [general purpose] machine guns were used in any number by either Egyptian or Syrian forces in 1973? I've read conflicting references but found nothing definite. 

I suppose if i have a need for the PK(M) in light mode I could wait for the Cold War Soviets who definitely should have them and do a conversion.

Edward

[Sunray]

Short answer Edward is no. I checked this out for Leon when he was designing the range.

RD Jones in Janes Infantry Weapons(Egypt) omits any mention of PK.

I think it was Laffin in Osprey suggests that this may have been because the SG43 was built under licence in Egypt and popular because it was soldier proof,as well as that national pride factor.

Sources suggest the Syrians adopted the PK after the 73 war, as part of Soviet sponsored rearmament.

[kustenjaeger]

Short answer Edward is no. I checked this out for Leon when he was designing the range.

RD Jones in Janes Infantry Weapons(Egypt) omits any mention of PK.

I think it was Laffin in Osprey suggests that this may have been because the SG43 was built under licence in Egypt and popular because it was soldier proof,as well as that national pride factor.

Sources suggest the Syrians adopted the PK after the 73 war, as part of Soviet sponsored rearmament.

Many thanks - really useful.

Edward

[flamingpig0]

The Israelis deliberately used M48's and Shermans against the Jordainians to avoid blue on blue, but no doubt Nobby will be doing that.

Erm, didn't the Jordanians have M48s

[Raider4]

Erm, didn't the Jordanians have M48s

Exactly!


"It's an M48!"
"Oh, that's one of ours then"

compared to 

"Centurion ahead."
"Ours or theirs?"
"Ummm . . ."

[fsn]

You've missed your ultimate match up.
Jordanian Cents vs Israeli Cents (fictional but hell)

That would be fratricide! Not gonna happen on my table.

[Sunray]

That would be fratricide! Not gonna happen on my table.

     - +1

needed a laugh- Thanks Nobby!

[flamingpig0]

Exactly!


"It's an M48!"
"Oh, that's one of ours then"

compared to

"Centurion ahead."
"Ours or theirs?"
"Ummm . . ."

I can't imagine how many friendly fire incidents form part of the Ukraine-Russia conflict

[Raider4]

Erm, didn't the Jordanians have M48s

Sorry, I completely mis-read that as "the Jordanians didn't have M48s".


A quick read of Wikipedia suggests the Israeli M48s were used against the Egyptians, their Centurions took on the Jordanian M48s during the Six Day War.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Just took a look at the new online catalouge. Far as I'm aware the Egyptians didn't have any ex-German WWII kit and the Sherman with FL-10 turret was an Egyptian (very rare - all 10 of em) conversion. The German stuff came from scrap dumps in France when the Frenach sold the Israiles AMX-13's they supplied it as a balance to the Syrians. Open to correction here but it was manily Pnz IV and Stug IIIG. There are persistant rumours Panthers may also have been supplied, but there is absolutly no evidence of this.

[kustenjaeger]

I think that the Pzkw IV, StuG and Jagdpanzer IV would all be Syrian and their last outing was in 1967.

Edward

[kustenjaeger]

    - +1

needed a laugh- Thanks Nobby!

Exactly!


"It's an M48!"
"Oh, that's one of ours then"

compared to

"Centurion ahead."
"Ours or theirs?"
"Ummm . . ."

Exactly!


"It's an M48!"
"Oh, that's one of ours then"

compared to

"Centurion ahead."
"Ours or theirs?"
"Ummm . . ."

I remember playing a board game at school (October War by SPI, I think) where my opponent fired on and knocked out one of his own IDF Centurions ....

Edward

[Sunray]

I think that the Pzkw IV, StuG and Jagdpanzer IV would all be Syrian and their last outing was in 1967.

Edward

The authority on this are the good ole boys at the Latrun Tank Museum. Israeli intelligence kept a close eye on Syrian aquisitions of AVFs in the 1950s/60s - and still do. Data released to the archives indicates the French were first to supply Pz IVs - about 40. Then in 1955, some 45 purchased from the Czechs at £5,400 eachand 12 StuG at £3,200 each. Spain also supplied Pz4
(17). By 1967 25 Pz IVs were runners. Others were dug in hull down as bunkers. I am informed this is "kosher".The Syrians were unfortunate on 2 fronts. First,the Shermans were upgunned with the new French 75mm CN 75-50 firing an AP at 3,200 feet per second. Secondly the IDF had appointed Tal to command the tank force. They soon knew who their boss was. To this day the tankers are the most disciplined of the "slack" citizen's army. Accurate gunnery was Tal's goal. In the 1965 tank duel for "the waters" of the upper Jordan, the new up gunned Shermans - some with modified 105- and Tal manning one of the guns, decimated  the Syrian PzIVs and even destroyed earth moving equiptment at extreme range. A success that was repeated in the Six-Day Way.
Syrian Jagpanzer IvS were reported to be in storage in Damascus until the 1990s. 

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

You seem to have added T64's fraid those are Soviet Union only, T-72's are the exported ones !