Dig in again

[StevieTC]

I'll start by apologising for bring this up again.

I know this subject has been done to death, I have read the historic posts on the subject, but I am still not sure it makes sense to me.

Page 78 Low Profile special ability states that all direct shooting at Low Profile is -1D6 from attacks

The errata for page 8 states that the -1D6 modifier for shooting at a low profile target only applies if that target is in a low or high Area terrain feature, behind a linear obstacle or Dug-in so appears to clarify the page 78 rule.

The errata for page 20 states that infantry, infantry support, small AT, AA, IG's and Engineers can dig in and enemy firing from 90 degrees from the front suffer -1D6 attacks.

This last rule appears to be a completely different to the first two. The reason I state this is

1)   The page 78 / page 8 rule makes no mention of 90 degrees to the front.
2)   Infantry guns are not low profile, so unless the page 20 rule is separate, there is no point digging them in as they don't gain the -1D6 benefit.

So, for example, if infantry "dig in" in the open, do enemy firing on then suffer -1D6 attacks (dug in) if within 90 degrees to the front and another -1D6 (dug in low profile by direct firing)

For an Infantry Gun in the same circumstances, it would be -1D6 (dug in) if within 90 degrees to the front but because they are not low profile, nothing else.

Finally, I cant find reference to any save for dug in troops in the rules, although I have seen mention in the forum of 5+ (is that not dug outs in the field defences section?)

Therefore as far as I can see, the save is whatever you get for the terrain you dig into.
Is this right or can someone point me to what I have missed

Thanks

[Big Insect]

Hi Steve
I'm not ignoring you.
Let me dig out my BKCIV and errata sheets and come back to you - my brain is in FWCII mode at moment, so I wasnt to make sure you get an appropriately 1940's reply 
Cheers
Mark

[Techno 3]

..and while Mark sorts that out..Welcome to the forum, Stevie.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Likewise welcome

[StevieTC]

Thanks for the welcome.

I've only started actually playing BKC in the last 2 weeks despite having 3 versions of the rules and 2 armies of around 5000 points each.

I'll probably come up with some more questions in time if I can't find the answers elsewhere

[Ithoriel]

I'll add my voice to the chorus of welcomes!

I'll also say that the hive mind here is usually pretty good at answering questions though if you haven't had an answer if (OK, when!) discussions wander off topic a gentle reminder of the original question will generally nudge it back on track.

[Big Insect]

I'll start by apologising for bring this up again.

> First off - no need to apologies - its a complex subject & not necessarily logical.

I know this subject has been done to death, I have read the historic posts on the subject, but I am still not sure it makes sense to me.

Page 78 Low Profile special ability states that all direct shooting at Low Profile is -1D6 from attacks

The errata for page 8 states that the -1D6 modifier for shooting at a low profile target only applies if that target is in a low or high Area terrain feature, behind a linear obstacle or Dug-in so appears to clarify the page 78 rule.

> yup - it was not working that a StuGIII out in the open got a low-profile deduction - they are pretty big beasts at the best of times!

The errata for page 20 states that infantry, infantry support, small AT, AA, IG's and Engineers can dig in and enemy firing from 90 degrees from the front suffer -1D6 attacks.

This last rule appears to be a completely different to the first two. The reason I state this is

1)    The page 78 / page 8 rule makes no mention of 90 degrees to the front.

> correct - as the 'Dig-in' bonus is only providing cover to the units front (see my comments below about it being a temporary form of defense)

2)    Infantry guns are not low profile, so unless the page 20 rule is separate, there is no point digging them in as they don't gain the -1D6 benefit.

> Agreed and a good spot. The challenge with the IG classification is that you can have a 7.5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18 at one end of the scale and a 25pdr at the other. Both operate as 'Infantry Guns' and I was trying to not get too granular in the army lists as to which IGs got to be able to apply the Dig-In capability and which ones couldn't. I felt it also, in some why reflected the abilities of the crews to make use of improvised cover. IG crews seemed to me more likely to have that sort of training instinctively in their 'blood' so to speak.

So, for example, if infantry "dig in" in the open, do enemy firing on then suffer -1D6 attacks (dug in) if within 90 degrees to the front and another -1D6 (dug in low profile by direct firing)

> yes, correct - but you can never get to '0' dice or a +7 to hit

For an Infantry Gun in the same circumstances, it would be -1D6 (dug in) if within 90 degrees to the front but because they are not low profile, nothing else.

> yes, correct - if they are not in any other form of cover

Finally, I cant find reference to any save for dug in troops in the rules, although I have seen mention in the forum of 5+ (is that not dug outs in the field defences section?)

Yes - you are correct - no additional saves. Dig-In just makes a target harder to hit. Properly prepared field defenses, such as trenches and dug-outs etc. are a different matter and some offer a wider field of cover or even over-head cover, as they are prepared defenses

Therefore as far as I can see, the save is whatever you get for the terrain you dig into.
Is this right or can someone point me to what I have missed

> not sure how you get to that, but if the unit digs into a piece of terrain (such as a BUA for example) and that terrain offers a higher level of protection than the units standard cover rating + the effect of Dig-In, then yes, always use the higher level of cover. But in the open, a unit will always benefit from Dig-In protection as opposed to not being dug-in. If that makes sense?

Thanks

The fundamental of the 'Dig-in' rule is that it is trying to take into account a temporary, improvised, short-term attempt by the unit to provide itself with additional cover. This cover very often will not be as comprehensive as it might be e.g. not 360 degrees, exposed to the air etc.etc.etc. Think of it as often a hurried attempt for an infantryman to use his personal entrenching tool to dig a scrape and get as low in it as he possibly can, often when he is already under direct fire    Or an AT gun crew pulling together some/any sort of debris or bricks or logs etc. to give them some degree of protection. I'm sure you'll get the idea.

I've tried to provide answers to each of your specific questions in bold above, but it is worth bearing a basic rules mechanism in mind with all this.
One of the big challenges with the rules is the intention to try and maintain the use of a single D:6 to determine many of the results outcomes (even if that means throwing multiple D:6 - if that makes sense). So we try, where possible not to have a target needing a score of 7+ to be hit (e.g. nothing cannot be hit). This usually means we either have to add the catch-all proviso, that regardless of what the multiple protection factors might add up to, all units can always be hit on a 6 (assuming that they are visible) and that is the default rule.
Or we have to factor in the removal of the opponents shooting dice (so a -1 D:6 can be applied for certain protection factors, like where units Dig-In). This latter works OK, but has its limitations as once again, to aid game-play we don't want any unit to ultimately end up with '0' shooting dice.
In some instance you'll get a mix of both modifiers - so a -X to hit and a -1 D:6 because the unit is Tough (for example). Put a Tiger II in a BUA and its a 'mother' to take it out frontally!

So some of what you are experiencing with the 'Dig-In' rule is caused by the above. Its a bit of a work around and as with a lot of rules sets, the idea (for me anyway) is to make the game playable and have realistic outcomes. Sometimes getting to the right outcomes is not necessarily logical - but generally the rules work 

I hope all that helps and also - welcome to the Forum and the game
Cheers
Mark