Reasons NOT to refight historical battles

[John Cook]

The biggest problem with fighting a historical battle is you can't.

All I can say to that is that the military does it as a teaching tool and the people at Little Wars TV do it all the time.

[Ithoriel]

All I can say to that is that the military does it as a teaching tool .....

That would explain why so many armies spend the first part of each war learning just how wrong so many of their beliefs were.

[Chris Pringle]

That would explain why so many armies spend the first part of each war learning just how wrong so many of their beliefs were.

Because they don't realise the rules have changed and they were still using the previous edition.

[Ithoriel]

Oh! I say, Carruthers! Guderian is using BKCIV and we're still on BKCII. Dashed unsporting if you ask me!! :-D

[John Cook]

That would explain why so many armies spend the first part of each war learning just how wrong so many of their beliefs were.

Recent examples being?

[Ithoriel]

The Brits in the late 1930's, Midway, Vietnam, Afghanistan spring to mind. I'm sure there are others.

[Raider4]

The Brits in the late 1930's . . .

And the French. Very much the French.

[John Cook]

The Brits in the late 1930's, Midway, Vietnam, Afghanistan spring to mind. I'm sure there are others.

I asked for recent examples, say, ones in my life time.  I'm not sure any military did much wargaming as a teaching tool prior to the 1960s, except of course the Germans with their Kriegspiel.  The only fully motorised army in 1939 was the British but, as usual, there was not much of it.  It was neither equipped nor trained to fight WW1 over again so that seems, to me, to be a poor example but I don't know how much tactical or operational wargaming was done in those days by the British.  Midway is definitely a poor example and is one where wargaming various scenarios paid dividends.  Nimitz himself said that the so-called 'Fleet Problems' played during the 1930s and as late as 1940, were instrumental in the successful US prosecution of war in the Pacific.  Vietnam and Afghanistan were political defeats, resulting from lack of American political/civilian willpower, they were not military defeats, on the contrary.  The VC/Vietnamese were only able to win when the Americans pulled out.  Exactly the same can be said of Afghanistan.  Recent examples where wargaming paid dividends are the Falklands and both Gulf Wars.  Wargaming historical scenarios is still a tool used for teaching tactical and operational art in most sophisticated armed forces.

[Gwydion]

Agree with that John.

Also in WWII the Western Approaches Tactical Unit based in Liverpool, made a significant, possibly pivotal, contribution to changing and developing tactics in the Battle of the Atlantic. The way they did this was by wargaming the U Boat attacks and Allied countermeasures.

Commander (later Captain) Gilbert Roberts and his team of Wrens also trained around 5,000 officers in anti-submarine tactics at the unit through wargames and the information gathered from wargames.

[mmcv]

Agree with that John.

Also in WWII the Western Approaches Tactical Unit based in Liverpool, made a significant, possibly pivotal, contribution to changing and developing tactics in the Battle of the Atlantic. The way they did this was by wargaming the U Boat attacks and Allied countermeasures.

Commander (later Captain) Gilbert Roberts and his team of Wrens also trained around 5,000 officers in anti-submarine tactics at the unit through wargames and the information gathered from wargames.

Covered well in this video if you haven't already seen it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVet82IUAqQ

[Ithoriel]

I asked for recent examples, say, ones in my life time.  I'm not sure any military did much wargaming as a teaching tool prior to the 1960s, except of course the Germans with their Kriegspiel.  The only fully motorised army in 1939 was the British but, as usual, there was not much of it.  It was neither equipped nor trained to fight WW1 over again so that seems, to me, to be a poor example but I don't know how much tactical or operational wargaming was done in those days by the British.  Midway is definitely a poor example and is one where wargaming various scenarios paid dividends.  Nimitz himself said that the so-called 'Fleet Problems' played during the 1930s and as late as 1940, were instrumental in the successful US prosecution of war in the Pacific.  Vietnam and Afghanistan were political defeats, resulting from lack of American political/civilian willpower, they were not military defeats, on the contrary.  The VC/Vietnamese were only able to win when the Americans pulled out.  Exactly the same can be said of Afghanistan.  Recent examples where wargaming paid dividends are the Falklands and both Gulf Wars.  Wargaming historical scenarios is still a tool used for teaching tactical and operational art in most sophisticated armed forces.

Before we vanish entirely down the rabbit hole.

Recent? I'm currently back to reading everything I can find on all things Sumerian. Recent starts with the Hittites.

Midway. The US and Japan both gamed it. The Americans lucked out, the Japanese allowed senior officers to overrule the their juniors, who were right. The Japanese still only lost "All for want of a ....horseshoe nail scout plane."

All wars lost are political defeats. The military is the combat arm of the political entity. You cannot win the military conflict and lose the political one, they are one and the same. "War is the continuation of politics by other means." - Carl von Clausewitz

It's like saying, of a soccer game, we won more possession, spent more time in the opponent's half and created more corners and only lost because the opposition scored more goals.

You can study a battle and learn valuable lessons but you can also study battles and make wrong inferences from them.

Finally, we are straying in to the wargaming of future events, which, surely, are, by definition, not historical. Indeed, since they are gaming a future event, it might even be considered science fiction.  

We are clearly not going to persuade each other, so my best hope is that we are providing others with either food for thought or entertainment.

[Last Hussar]

In my defence I would point out what the military games is different to what we do.

To make my point, however, please give me a link to the accurate Orbat for the Germans for Market Garden.

[John Cook]

In my defence I would point out what the military games is different to what we do.

To make my point, however, please give me a link to the accurate Orbat for the Germans for Market Garden.

Your point eludes me I'm afraid.  How do you decide that the OB for Market Garden in front of you is inaccurate. 

Coincidentally, HQ NORTHAG conducted a wargame of Market Garden in about 1989/90, one of their annual staff training events.  It comprised a Staff Ride followed by a Tactical Exercise Without Troops (TEWT), which although it didn't use dice or miniatures was hardly different from civilian wargaming.

 

[Ithoriel]

Coincidentally, HQ NORTHAG conducted a wargame of Market Garden in about 1989/90, one of their annual staff training events.  It comprised a Staff Ride followed by a Tactical Exercise Without Troops (TEWT), which although it didn't use dice or miniatures was hardly different from civilian wargaming.

Clearly you and I play very different games if you think that was " hardly different from civilian wargaming."


It's as far removed from what I would consider wargaming as Subbuteo is. If not further. At least Subbuteo is a conflict played on a playing surface with miniatures.

[Heedless Horseman]

"Whisht, Lads, Had yer Gobs... an I'll tell yer's all an ar'ful story!
Whisht, Lads.. Had yer Gobs... an' Ill tell ye 'boot The Worme!"

*1. Young Lord Lambton, he espied..  a Worme of Gruesome size. A'll curled aboot a Hill, he was... with Greet Big Goggly Eyes!
With Lance and Sword, the Brave Young Lord...
fell uopn...  that Monstrous Beastie!

*2. Referencing Tactical training, Lambton instituted an assault combining diversionary tactical movement, covering fire from flanking positions and assisted mobility in the form of Horse transport.
The assault was successful with objective carried.

The Goggly Eyed Worme Ate him in process.

Horses for Courses. Avalon Hill paper map and cardboard counters... or painted Miniatures on scenic fields. Same battle.

(My Profound Apologies to Folklore!).      (And Can't Sing, either!).