Please recommend: Sails and Oars, 16th century.

[steve_holmes_11]

As per title. I'm seeking a very simple set of rules for sailed and oared vessels in the 16th century (and maybe 50 years either side).

Likely settings are:
Portuguese Vs Mamluks / Ottomans in Arabian Sea (Indian Ocean).
Ottomans Vs Christians in Mediterranean (and connected waters).
Portuguese in Bay of Bengal / Java Sea and China Sea.
Late arriving Hollanders seeking to displace the Portuguese.


I had considered Galleys and Galleons (Ganesha), but found them over-complicated with 16 pints of sailing and wind. direction.
Something with 8 compass points and rather less ship-status tracking would be ideal.

I'm not convinced that such a ruleset exists, but would be grateful for any recommendations (especially if reviews are available).

[Westmarcher]

Have you tried Free Wargames Rules, Steve? For example, here's a Renaissance Naval rules set that may be of interest.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100110111923/http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/salmon/224/Naval/navalrules.html

[Orcs]

I would try Navwars own rules. They seem to be still avaliable at the expensive price of £1.75.  They are very simple 12 A5 pagers, but for the price I would say they are worth a go

http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/default.asp?detail=302


16TH CENTURY MEDITERRANEAN GALLEY RULES (NAVWAR)
Code - NAV18
£1.75 

[steve_holmes_11]

Have you tried Free Wargames Rules, Steve? For example, here's a Renaissance Naval rules set that may be of interest.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100110111923/http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/salmon/224/Naval/navalrules.html

Thanks, It's late so I managed just one pass through.
Sailing ships using the DBM engine, interesting.
I like the ship classifiations, and can probably squeeze the various eastern merchant and war ships in.

Neither the sailing nor fighting instructions made much sense at first reading.
Have bookmarked for another pass tomorrow.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Thanks, It's late so I managed just one pass through.
Sailing ships using the DBM engine, interesting.
I like the ship classifiations, and can probably squeeze the various eastern merchant and war ships in.

Neither the sailing nor fighting instructions made much sense at first reading.
Have bookmarked for another pass tomorrow.

I remember using these in the big Renaissance campaign (PBEM, I was one of the Cossack bands and we set up the BSTO - Black Sea Treaty Organisation, those were the days ), they're ok, quick and simple, not a favourite with budding Hornblowers .

Other rules you could look at are Mare Nostrum which are really simple https://freewargamesrules.fandom.com/wiki/Mare_Nostrum

[steve_holmes_11]

I remember using these in the big Renaissance campaign (PBEM, I was one of the Cossack bands and we set up the BSTO - Black Sea Treaty Organisation, those were the days ), they're ok, quick and simple, not a favourite with budding Hornblowers .

Other rules you could look at are Mare Nostrum which are really simple https://freewargamesrules.fandom.com/wiki/Mare_Nostrum

Thanks, filed for review tomorrow.
I think I'll need to check the ship types against an Italian dictionary.

[steve_holmes_11]

I would try Navwars own rules. They seem to be still avaliable at the expensive price of £1.75.  They are very simple 12 A5 pagers, but for the price I would say they are worth a go

http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/default.asp?detail=302


16TH CENTURY MEDITERRANEAN GALLEY RULES (NAVWAR)
Code - NAV18
£1.75 

Probably lack details for Sailing ships and Eastern types, but it's difficult to resist taking a punt at that price.

Digressing slightly, something I noticed with bookshops at the Carronade show.
3 or 4 well reviwed sets of Napoleonic rules, but now retailing around £40.
While I don't begrudge a developer a living wage, that's well above my price point for rules I probably won't use.

Whether there's a universal marketing principle there, it's difficult to say.

[hammurabi70]

I have been recommended WAR BY SAIL.
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/290486/War-by-Sail
Don't have a copy, never played it but it claims to cover galley warfare and generic naval warfare from 1300 onwards.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Ask Kitty, proof read a set of his a while back. Being a nice kat he should let you have a copy... (Sorry for the presumption Alexander)

[steve_holmes_11]

I have been recommended WAR BY SAIL.
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/290486/War-by-Sail
Don't have a copy, never played it but it claims to cover galley warfare and generic naval warfare from 1300 onwards.

It certainly covers the desired period.

I watched the accompanying video and found it too detailed for me.
By which I mean:
* Sail settings and manoeuvre templates for each ship (You're helming each vessel).
* Lots of markers to show each ship's status.
* Firing with a die for each gun, with save and specials for accumulated sixes buckets of dice (layers of buckets of dice).
* Seems prone to the action sailing off the tabletop (Always a problem when I try Naval stuff).

Excellent if you wish to captain each ship in a small squadron (2 to 5), but excess detail for larger numbers.

[hammurabi70]

It certainly covers the desired period.

I watched the accompanying video and found it too detailed for me.
By which I mean:
* Sail settings and manoeuvre templates for each ship (You're helming each vessel).
* Lots of markers to show each ship's status.
* Firing with a die for each gun, with save and specials for accumulated sixes buckets of dice (layers of buckets of dice).
* Seems prone to the action sailing off the tabletop (Always a problem when I try Naval stuff).

Excellent if you wish to captain each ship in a small squadron (2 to 5), but excess detail for larger numbers.

Many thanks for an excellent summary.

[steve_holmes_11]

Ask Kitty, proof read a set of his a while back. Being a nice kat he should let you have a copy... (Sorry for the presumption Alexander)

I have a copy and am providing private feedback.

In public:
Some very nice concepts.
Could certainly use the rules for oared vessels.

Would need to bolt on my own homebrew for sailing ships.
Might work OK comparing a Carrack to Galleass under sail.

Rather harder for the little Dhow, Prahu or Jonk which didn't tend to hold formations.
However, if I can work something for the Caravel (another small manoeuvrable type), maybe those others will follow.

[FierceKitty]

Ask Kitty, proof read a set of his a while back. Being a nice kat he should let you have a copy... (Sorry for the presumption Alexander)

No worries, just provide some catnip.

[steve_holmes_11]

A quick update beginning with my target forces.

Portuguese Navigators who encountered predominantly Ottoman Mamluk fleets, but also ships from the Spice Islands (Indonesia/Malaysia), China and Japan.
This puts rather a stretch on most Mediterranean galley rules, since sailing ships feature.

The DBA style Renaissance Naval covers all the ship types (Though not in the detail to give them much character).
Manoeuvre, in particular, is crude.
I'm not convinced by its concept that all ships fought in groups.

Mare Nostrum reads similar to a Featherstone wargame, with many individual ships, except the smallest classes that operate in groups.

Fiercekitty's rules are rather more detailed, but dedicated to Galley warfare.
I like the split of huls into 4 weight classes, and the commitment to ships fighting in groups.


Whatever I adopt (still undecided), I'll need to develop a bolt-on module for sailing.
Because it's overly simplistic in the DBA game, and isn't catered for in the two Mediterranean galley games.

The large Portuguese Carracks can probably shoot and fight similarly to Mediterranean Galleass (Operate individually, and require combined enemy effort to take them out).
Smaller sailing vessels threaten to slow the game, unless the sailing system is extremely simple.
I'm keen to have the rowed ships operate in swarms.

And that's all for now folks.

[paulr]

I'm interested to hear how your search goes, I've been looking for rules with a similar approach for a long time