Black uniforms: Advice sought

[hammurabi70]

Pre synthetic dyes, a lot of 'black' coloring was produced in a way that actually corroded the structure of the fabric.

I found this  (really interesting) blog on-line which I thought was helpful - especially the bit about the colour being corrosive. I also read that it was not particularly 'fast'.
https://refashioningrenaissance.eu/exploring-historical-blacks-the-burgundian-black-collaboratory/

In the C14th/C15th - when black clothing (for upper class men especially) was a sign of wealth - partly because it was expensive, but also because it really shows up the dirt so easily. This Oak Apple (gall) method seemed to be the primary source of black cloth dye. The same process was used from the Roman empire right up to the C17th for writing ink using iron filings and oak apples (galls).
However, it does dissolve woolen cloth specifically - so not only were your black cloths costly. they didn't last too long! As most Napoleonic Wars uniforms were made of wool, and the oak gall method was expensive, I suspect that the over-painting method described in the blog might have been used for mass produced uniforms. So a hint of red or blue in the black might be a good way to highlight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_apple

Not sure how the Chinese dyed silks black.
Some linen is naturally black when it is first made, but like most linen it lightens with sunlight and washing.

A reenactor once advised me that black dye technology was introduced in the fourteenth century; as a novel process it was presumably expensive when first done.  I gather the Jesuits choosing black robes is as much a fashion statement as anything else.  Inexpensive purple dye was created in the nineteenth century; I would be interested if anyone knows how widespread its use was prior to the Victorian era.  Apart from Emperor's robes when else was it used?

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

You need to read this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mauve-Invented-Color-Changed-World/dp/1435296699

[hammurabi70]

You need to read this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mauve-Invented-Color-Changed-World/dp/1435296699

Thank you; it looks like an interesting read.  Of course there is detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple

My concerns are the general availability in ancient times in military use.  For example, were the Vexillia used by the forces of the Byzantine Empire predominantly coloured in imperial purple or city red?  Was the emblem of the Sassanian forces in purple or royal blue? A google search will generate suggestions each way.

[steve_holmes_11]

Not sure how the Chinese dyed silks black.
Some linen is naturally black when it is first made, but like most linen it lightens with sunlight and washing.

The Chinese used tannin-rich mud from tropical river deltas.

[toxicpixie]

Thank you gentlemen.

Might have to try the contrast black.  :-

I've found it great on 20mm plastics - not tried on 10mm but I suspect it'll be a very easy time saver!

[DHautpol]

My approach is a grey wash over black.

In particular, Howard Hues "Panzer Grey" (1719), thinned to taste, over Liquitex Black Gesso.

I use the "Black Undercoat" method and I find black gesso works very well (grey and white versions are available too).  It can be sploshed on and dries really tightly so the detail is not obscured.  It also has what I believe is termed "tooth", meaning it grips the paint well; I once tried GW Chaos Black and the surface was quite slippery and I found I was dragging the subsequent colour about on the surface rather than having it cover.

[Heedless Horseman]

I haven't actually painted anything for a while, and have not tried the Vallejo equivalent, but thought Revel 'Anthracite' was a very good 'off black'. I find true black a bit too 'harsh' for 10mm for uniform or headgear... and definitely for 'dusty' / 'worn' boots! OK for leather belts etc. as contrast over 'off black'.

[Leman]

Stopped using black ages ago and only use Vallejo black grey these days.

[Techno II]

What surprises me is how 'black' police uniforms sometimes appear on the TV

To my poor old eyes, they definitely look a dark brown. (Usually when the 'boys in blue' are in bright sunshine.)

Cheers - Phil.

[paulr]

Stopped using black ages ago and only use Vallejo black grey these days.

Seconded, Basalt grey is a good highlight / dry brush

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

What surprises me is how 'black' police uniforms sometimes appear on the TV

To my poor old eyes, they definitely look a dark brown. (Usually when the 'boys in blue' are in bright sunshine.) :-

Cheers - Phil.

Think I've said this before but certainly my Merseyside Police uniform was black not blue. The two officers I was chatting to yesterday were also in black.

[Techno II]

Absolutely, Ian.....In daylight, if I see a policeman/woman...No doubt about it being black.

It's just on the TV that they sometimes look a very dark brown...I guess it's the way the light sometimes strikes the material and does rather odd things......some sort of refraction on the material, perhaps ?

It's usually on the 'shirt', rather than the utility jacket.

Cheers - Phil

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Well the US system is called Never The Same Colour Twice

[Westmarcher]

What surprises me is how 'black' police uniforms sometimes appear on the TV
To my poor old eyes, they definitely look a dark brown. (Usually when the 'boys in blue' are in bright sunshine.) :-

Absolutely, Ian.....In daylight, if I see a policeman/woman...No doubt about it being black.

It's just on the TV that they sometimes look a very dark brown...I guess it's the way the light sometimes strikes the material and does rather odd things......some sort of refraction on the material, perhaps ? :-

Phil, have you tried cleaning your TV screen?

 

[Techno II]

Nah !....I like the opaque, softer colours, Davy.

Cheers - Phil

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Nah !....I like the opaque, softer colours, Davy.

Cheers - Phil

You mean you don't know how to Phil 

[toxicpixie]

Are you sure your eyeballs aren't set to sepia tone

The "balance" of colour is always interesting, I find I paint things and they are in one colour in the office, another in the living room, a third under the clubs awful Flourescents and a fourth when photo's!

[Techno II]

You mean you don't know how to Phil 

Our TV doesn't have the facility to change colours in the ultra violet and infra red ends of the spectrum, Ian.

Which is what I need.

Nathan is absolutely right.....the 'colour balance' of different types of lighting shows completely different hues.....

What have we got nowadays ?

Normal daylight.....though that can vary enormously.
Tungsten (old type light bulbs).....I still use those as 'heaters' to help set the green stuff masters quickly....Those shift the 'colour temperatures' towards orange.
Florescent energy saving bulbs.....Those give a green hue.
Sodium lighting......Don't have a clue what they do, as I don't think there are any little sodium bulbs we actually use in our homes...Only time we have any interaction with sodium lighting would be on 'motorways' or big indoor venues.

Now there are LEDs...no idea what colour balance they produce.

I'll just mess about with a couple of programs I've got on the PC.

Cheers - Phil 

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I'll just mess about with a couple of programs I've got on the PC.

Cheers - Phil 

The constable will charge you with comon assault

[Terry37]

I use a dark black-gray as he base, and then shade with true black and highlight with a medium gray in think light washed.





I like hte results,

Terry