Berlin 1980s British OOB

Started by Big Insect, 02 March 2021, 10:21:13 AM

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Big Insect

Hi all - having been inspired by the Berlin Camo painted Cold War Brits in the latest batch of photos on the Pendraken website - I am looking at putting together a small skirmish level CWC force to play out some Cold War (WW3) scenarios - or just 'incidents' in Berlin.

Can somebody point me at an OOB for the UK Berlin forces in the 1980's and any ideas on what vehicles I should be using (& suggestions on numbers) would be great.
Also, are there any conversions I need to think about?

Many thanks
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

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Steve J

I found this Mark, which should be a good starting point via this site:

https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php?title=NATO_OOB_1989

3. UK Berlin Infantry Brigade - is an independent unit from the BAOR: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan

a. 1st Bn, The Royal Highland Fusiliers: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan

b. 1st Bn, The Queen's Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan

c. 1st Bn, The Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Regt: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan

d. 1 Armoured Squadron: 17 Chieftain, 1 Sultan, 1 Spartan, and 1 Ferret

Hope this helps?
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Steve J

This site is really useful and looks to have similar info to the above. The Berlin Brigade is about half way down.

http://www.orbat.info/history/historical/nato/oob1989.html
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Big Insect

Many thanks Steve - great info - and a good range of interesting vehicles and equipment.
Quite a reasonable sized force - I am pleasantly surprised.

Much appreciated

Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Famously 12 of those 432's have a rarden turret, rest were at Warminster. Useage is problematic, each change of Brigade Commander mean a change of use. One thing i can garentee is that they were not used as troop carriers, turret took up to much space.
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Big Insect

Quote from: ianrs54 on 02 March 2021, 01:00:10 PM
Famously 12 of those 432's have a rarden turret, rest were at Warminster. Useage is problematic, each change of Brigade Commander mean a change of use. One thing i can garentee is that they were not used as troop carriers, turret took up to much space.

That's great Ian - I like a bit of conversion - which other vehicles use the Rarden turret - so I can use these for conversion please? Thanks
And then what do I do with the vehicles I take the Rarden turrets from .... hmmm.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Big Insect

I pulled this off Wiki -

The Rarden turret was also intended to be retro-fitted to the FV432 armoured personnel carrier, but when fitted with Rarden and its turret there was too little room left to accommodate the necessary infantry. 13 vehicles were fitted with the Fox turret, as an experimental fire support vehicle. There were problems with the long-barrelled weapon fouling external fittings (which meant that the turret had to be mounted on a three-inch spacer) and with blast damage to the flotation screen. They were deployed with the Berlin Infantry Brigade.

My confusion is whether it was the Fox turret fitted to the FV432 or was it a different turret?
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Its a Foix turretb Mark. H&R used to make it, probably in the 70's though. The original intent was to have 1 Rarden, 2 Peak MG turrets and 1 Flat-top. Played with both the Rarden and Peak ones.
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Big Insect

Much appreciated Mark.

I fancy the idea of some urban CWC armoured conflict based on a 'flare-up' in Berlin in the mid to late 1980s.

I have a lot of urban ruins that might make for an interesting game - especially against some East German border forces.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Steve J

I think the Berlin Brigade feature a bit in the Red Storm Rising novel, by Tom Clancy. Years since I read it but I remember it as a great read.
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Big Insect

Quote from: Steve J on 02 March 2021, 05:18:27 PM
I think the Berlin Brigade feature a bit in the Red Storm Rising novel, by Tom Clancy. Years since I read it but I remember it as a great read.

Good shout Steve - I am looking for something different to re-read - having been immersed in Sassanid Persian stuff for a conference presentation for last 6 months.
A while ago I looked at a Shetland Island Cold War scenario - a bit like the Falklands - called 'Mind the Gap' about a small Soviet force occupying the Orkney's and Shetlands ahead of a major Cold War 'flare up' - so I'll check out Red Storm again.
Cheers
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

pierre the shy

If you want to get some ideas about the East German (and some Soviet) opposition you might be facing you can download this PDF copy of Armor magazine from Dec 1994 which outlines the WARPAC plan to invade West Berlin during the 1980's:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj43_CVmpLvAhWpyzgGHWz-CZsQFjAAegQIAhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.benning.army.mil%2FArmor%2FeARMOR%2Fcontent%2Fissues%2F1994%2FNOV_DEC%2FArmorNovemberDecember1994web.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1oTmPbtAJsNVQZwkaRnQ22

Its only about a 8Mb download, hope its of some use to you.

Cheers
Peter

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Big Insect

'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Westmarcher

On the same theme, this reminds me of one of the free board simulation games I got when I subscribed to Strategy & Tactics. I never played the game, eventually selling it to a buyer whom I arranged to meet in the village pub where we swapped the goods and the dosh and had a drink together discussing wargaming.

The game was called Berlin'85: The Enemy at the Gates. Here's a link to give you an idea what it was like:-
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/244129/berlin-85-enemy-gates
The link includes images of the counters. I can't make them out but, if anyone can, it might be of interest to those who are more interested in this era than me to compare the speculated Warsaw Pact OOB with the Border's Edge OOBs. 
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.