Berlin 1980s British OOB

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Int Corps had Mercedes and Opel cars and vans...

Timecast AFVs are perfect BTW, I use them with Pendraken infantry.
Only a few if the infantry have packs, most dropped theirs when the action started...

[Big Insect]

Interesting Lemmey - thanks

I have found an interesting blog on the Berlin Brigade - the comments section at the bottom is very interesting:
http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com/2015/11/some-notes-on-british-berlin-brigade-of.html

Looks like I might need to replace some of the Milan teams with Wombats (might go for 1 Milan and 2 Wombat) - I rather like the RCLRs myself - and at close quarter street fighting they might be a better option anyway - being very effective against buildings apparently - although I had read that Milans were also very capable of taking out enemy occupied building (?)
There also appear to be some landrovers - some used to transport the Wombat teams - which makes sense.

Also the Ferrets were used more for liaison and 'running around' and that the Scimitars were the primary Recce vehicles (& replaced the earlier Fox A/Cs which were withdrawn due to instability issues).  At this 'skirmish' level I'll run the Scimitars as Recce Support, to allow them to take on a more offensive role as necessary.

[Big Insect]

And a very well researched 1989 BAOR OOB from the Tanknet forum, including the Berlin Brigade:

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf

Agreed - this is really helpful. Berlin Brigade can be found on Page 109:

But there is also this interesting note on the unique composition of the Berlin Bigrade Infantry Bns (Page 110):

Note on Inf Bns: All three Bns assigned to the Berlin Bde had a unique organization for their Sp Coys.
The Recce Pls each had 8x FV721 FOX CVR (W).
The AT Pl was equipped with 6x WOMBAT and 6x MILAN all in LAND ROVERS FFR.
The Mortar Pl had 8x 81mm MORTARS also transported in LAND ROVERS FFR.
Finally each Bn had 4x FV432 with a Rarden Turret plus 2x FV432 and a FV434 ARV.

Which answers my question about transport for the AT PLs and Mortars  - so I'll need some Landrover FFRs.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Mortars were in dedicated 432's and normally operated in pairs attatched to the companies. Mortar platoon commander, together with the DS battery commander and an ALO if it had one formed the Fire Support Cell, each rifle company would have an FOO with it. A company would normally be cross attatched with a tank troop swaped in and an infantry platoon attatched to the tank squadron. I would therefore use 1 432 per platoon, rather than 1 for 2. MIlan sectiions had 4 firing posts in 2 432's. The Strikers were the Btn CO's reserve, and could be substituted with Milan MCT as at times all the swingfire vehicles were under RA command.

[Big Insect]

Thanks Ian

Is this 'normal' UK deployment or Berlin?

What is interesting from the blog (and the OOB) is that they both state that in Berlin the Milan/Wombat teams and mortars were in Landrovers?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Standard tactical method

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

What is interesting from the blog (and the OOB) is that they both state that in Berlin the Milan/Wombat teams and mortars were in Landrovers?

I quoted the standard "offical" methods for BAOR. It is possible that Berlin was differnt, and LWB Rovers could have been used in which case they would have a trailer . Check the Airmobile Infantry Btn organisation. Cross attatchment was doctrine but "slick" companies could be used. It would be down to circumstances. There was considerable flexibility in the tactics used. One interesting point is that 6 105's were consiered to be equilvalent to 2 81mm mortars in fire effect.

Sorry about previous breif reply, feilding 2 calls - one canceling the Covid testing - school has found enough staff.

[Raider4]

At this 'skirmish' level I'll run the Scimitars as Recce Support, to allow them to take on a more offensive role as necessary.

Eh? What? No Scimitars in Berlin, or any other member of the CVR(T) family.

[Raider4]

Ideally, I'd have liked to have had the MBTs as Centurions rather than Chieftains ... but not sure I can then have the FV432's with the Rarden turrets ... more research required there.

No idea when they changed from Centurion - somewhere around 1970 I'd guess - but it would certainly be long before the FV432/30 came about.

Info available about the Berlin Brigade seems to all be concentrated in the '80s. I'm interested in around the time the wall went up, but have so far found nothing online .

Also, there's what looks like an FV432/30 parked alongside the M5 just before exit 17 going northwards. Advertising a paintball 'park' I think.

[sultanbev]

in August 1961 the Berlin Infantry Brigade Group had:
1st Battalion Kings Regiment
1st Battalion Welch Regiment
1st Battalion Durham Light Infantry
B Sqn, 14/20th Hussars (replaced November 1960 by C Sqn, 4th RTR
38th Berlin Squadron, Royal Engineers
229th Signals Squadron

A 1958 Infantry Battalion had:
Bttn HQ: 64 men inc 6 man intelligence section, 7 man sniper section, 1x No.62 VHF radio, 2x No.31 radios
Medical Group: 21 men (also form HQ defence platoon?)
HQ Company: CHQ: 14 men, 2x No.31 radios
Signals Platoon: 55 men, 2x No. 62 VHF radios, 3x No.31 radios, 6x spare No.88A radios, 1x spare No.88B radio, 3x telephone exchanges
Admin Platoon: 88 men
Mortar Platoon: 33 men, 6x 3" mortars, 3x No.31 radios, 6x No.88B radios
MMG Platoon: 35 men, 6x Vickers MMG, 5x No.31 radios
AT Platoon: 6x 120mm MOBAT, 28 men, 1x No.31 radio
Assault Pioneer Section: 8 men

F echelson: 16x 1/4t trucks, 12x 1t GS trucks, 1x 1t APC, 1x 3t lorry
A echelon: 1x 1/4t truck, 1x 1t water tanker, 12x 3t lorries
B echelon: 1x 1/4t truck, 2x 1t trucks, 4x 3t lorries

4 Rifle Companies@ CHQ: 11 men, 2x Bren, 1x 2" mortar, 2x No.88 radios, 1x 1/4t truck & trailier, 1x 1t APC & trailer,
3 platoons@ 36 men, 2x 2" mortars with 18x smoke, 2x 3.5" M20 bazooka@ 4 rounds, 3 Bren, 2x Energa 73 rifle grenade launchers

In CWC it would look something like this:
Bttn HQ CV9 (1/4t truck)
4 Companies@
CHQ CV8 (infantry)
3 infantry stands (Bren, 3.5" RL)

1 Support Company:
CHQ CV8 (3t truck)
1x 3" mortar stand
1x Vickers MMG stand
1x 120mm MOBAT stand
1x 1/4t truck (gun tow)
2x 1/4t truck (transport for mortars and MMG)

What variations the Berlin Brigade at the time had I don't know. And whether 1961 TOE was different from 1958 TOE is another question I haven't found the answer to yet.

[Raider4]

No Ferrets? Must have been Ferrets.

Also Saracen or Humber Pig APCs? Maybe even Saladin?

I presume the armoured squadron had Mk. 5 Centurions (20-pdr) at that time?

[sultanbev]

Photo hear of Centurion in Berlin in 1961:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-british-centurion-tank-during-a-fight-exercise-in-berlin-spandau-56890219.html
and
"The 4th Royal Tank Regiment was in the British sector of West Berlin to provide armored support for the 3000 British infantry stationed there. Since 1945 and with the division of Berlin the US, France and England administer sectors of West Berlin and station armed forces there as a deterrent Soviet aggression. On August 22, 1961 the British 4th Royal Tank Regiment was one of the military units stationed there. This is the day of the first casualty of the crisis when a woman fell to her death from a window while trying to escape to the West. Tensions mounted and one of the British tanks standing ready for any action was the Centurion Mk. 5 of 10 Troop, C Squadron, commanded by Sgt. "Jake" Jacobs. His tank had several distinguishing features. First the main gun had a "Type A" barrel when most Mk.5's had a "Type B". The paint color of overall US Olive Drab was very unusual for a British tank in Berlin at this time. Keeping with 4th RTR tradition of using the letter "D" to name their tanks "Diehard" is painted on the track guard stowage bins. Keeping with another tradition started in WWI when a Chinese businessman covered the cost to have a tank built, there is a "Chinese Eye" painted on the front face of the turret stowage bins.

Here is the actual link:http://www.crossroadsdiecast.com/hm46.html";
and link for this article and couple of photos, showing 20pdr gun Mk.5
https://bfg-locations.editboard.com/t151-centurions-tanks-in-service-in-berlin-area
https://servimg.com/view/16304333/14
https://servimg.com/view/16304333/13

Video here:
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/VLVA807GJXZU80R6MMI89H8J3QVSD-GERMANY-BRITISH-ARMOURED-EXERCISE-IN-WEST-BERLIN/query/CENTURION
Some great footage in there! Infantry with SLR, 3.5" M20 and Brens, Centurion with extra seats for 2 infantry tank riders.
Also shows Ferret with turret MG, can't find APCs though.

By 1962 the tank squadron had Centurion Mk.5/1, which has the uparmoured glacis plate.

[Raider4]

Cool, thanks for that, especially the video. Good stuff.

[sultanbev]

Some interesting details here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=261077

"The Berlin Brigade was able to equip itself with a variety of vehicles not normally seen in British Army service (not least as it had its own budget)such as Unimogs used by the Infantry battalions, seen in Bronze Green, VW minibuses, VW Beetles and even the Munga field cars, used by, amongst others the Royal Military police and finished in gloss black."

[Big Insect]

Eh? What? No Scimitars in Berlin, or any other member of the CVR(T) family.

Oh yes - lots of Scimitars and Sultans and Spartans, but no Scorpions

[Big Insect]

There were Ferrets as well and they appear to have lasted into late 1980's - being used for liaison and run-around and one suspects they be drafted into use in an emergency.
But from the blogs I've found ex-Berlin Brigade service personnel (from the 80's) say that the Recce function was carried out by the FV432's with the Rarden turret and the Scimiters, not the Ferrets.

There are also images of Fox armoured cars in Berlin Camo - but they appear to have been withdrawn due to stability issues when the Rarden was fired. It was their turrets that went to convert some of the FV432s I suspect.

[sultanbev]

The Berlin Brigade book by Tankograd shows Foxes in service until 1974-1994, they weren't replaced by Scimitars out there. It also shows no photos of any of the CVR(T) family, and I've never seen any of the Berlin camo on CVR(T) series.

Mark

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

When were Vickers phased out?

[Big Insect]

The Berlin Brigade book by Tankograd shows Foxes in service until 1974-1994, they weren't replaced by Scimitars out there. It also shows no photos of any of the CVR(T) family, and I've never seen any of the Berlin camo on CVR(T) series.

Mark

The OOBs state that Scimiters were used - see below  

https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php?title=NATO_OOB_1989

3. UK Berlin Infantry Brigade - is an independent unit from the BAOR: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan
a. 1st Bn, The Royal Highland Fusiliers: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
b. 1st Bn, The Queen's Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
c. 1st Bn, The Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Regt: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
d. 1 Armoured Squadron: 17 Chieftain, 1 Sultan, 1 Spartan, and 1 Ferret

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Ok to answer an earlier question the klast Vickers Guns were removed in 1968, but that was from the Marines. Also I rather suspect that the 4 rifle company organisation was long gone by 1958 but remained in the ORBAT as a wartime intent rather than a reality. By 1945 most battalions only had 3 companies + support company due to manpower shortages.