Tactical Doctrine & Fixed Formations

[Prophaniti]

This is an interesting thread.  Throughout my whole time playing v2 I always thought that the fixed formations were linear.  i.e. the CO's formation did not include subordinate formations in it, which made for some tricky situations with rigid command structures and also prevented the CO from ordering failed HQ units.  (Which I did think was a bit odd, even at the time.)

[sultanbev]

I think we're getting formations that you create before the battle mixed up with doctrine.

Flexible doctrine means to me you can cross attach platoons from different battalions beffore you start the game, but they stick in FF under that command.
Eg you might have a 1944 panzer regiment Kampfegruppe with a CO, a Panzer Bttn HQ and a Panzer Grenadier Bttn HQ.

The Panzer battalion normally has 9 tank models, a SP flak gun model, and perhaps an engineer stand in Sdkfz 251/7
The Pz Grenadier bttn has roughly 9 infantry stands, 1x 81mm mortar stand, 1x PAK40 stand, 1x 75mm IG18 lets say.
The CO has a battery of 15cm Grilles, an engineer company of 3 engineer stands with flamethrowers, in trucks, and a couple of Flakpanzer 38t, lets say.

Now, under Flexible doctrine, you could move say 3 of the tanks to the PzGr HQ, 3 of the infnatry stands to the Panzer HQ, detach 1 panzer stand to the CO as personal HQ guard, donate the Grille from the CO to the panzergrenadier HQ, and even move the PAK40 to the Panzer HQ. You get two mixed combat battalions that way and a very small HQ kampfegruppe, probably as battle reserve.

Under the FF rule, once you've created these "mixed" battalions, they are only commandable by their immediate HQ, and perhaps, the CO at a minus. If you're not using FF rule, then it's a bit more fluid, but probably less realistic.

The same force under normal doctrine, couldn't be mixed like that. So all the tanks would be commanded by the tank HQ, all the infantry by  the infantry HQ. Under FF then, you're either commanding all tanks or all infantry (and their assocaited battalion assets). If you're not using FF, then in effect a HQ can reqeust help from a neighbouring battalion, but that is all it is, not an order, hence the proposed minus on the command roll. The CO could command any of them, but if I get it right, also at a minus.

And so on. If that helps....

Mark

[Dr Dave]

The -1 or +1 for Tac.Doc should be applied to the Co not the HQs.

Sorry Mark, but which +/- 1 are you referring to here. Are you saying that a rigid doc HQ can't use +1 for all doing the same thing, or +1 from a recce bonus? It reads like the former...

[Big Insect]

No no no Dave - now you are mixing up other rules mechanisms here

As Mark (Sultanbey) has so elegantly put it, think of it that the CO can command anybody but outside of his immediate reports will gain a penalty for doing so.
HQ's can only order their own direct reports.

If you put Recce within a FF under an HQ (which you can do) the Recce can only give a command bonus to that HQ and any other officers (FAO or FAC) that are also (nominally) included within his command.

There appears to be an error in the association between FF and Tac.Doc. that I will investigate and reply upon once I can access my rules book later in the week.

Cheers

[Big Insect]

This is an interesting thread.  Throughout my whole time playing v2 I always thought that the fixed formations were linear.  i.e. the CO's formation did not include subordinate formations in it, which made for some tricky situations with rigid command structures and also prevented the CO from ordering failed HQ units.  (Which I did think was a bit odd, even at the time.)

I am 100% with you here Prophaniti
Which is why I wanted it changed/clarified - it seemed completely illogical that a CO could not override his HQ's.
It also then seemed important that if the formation was better trained (more flexible) it would react to this command override more favorably than a less well trained or rigid formation (hence the +/- for the Tac.Docs). It just appears their may be an error in the cross-association of the Tac.Docs with the FF optional wording.

[fred.]

Leon, are you able to send Mark (Big insect)  a PDF version of the rules, it might help with easier access to what is written in the rules, vs what is intended, Especially if he is away from his physical rulebook a lot.

[Big Insect]

I have a PDF copy fred - I am just not allowed to access it on my work laptop 

So this will have to wait, but TBF I think I am pretty clear that what i am saying is/was my intention with all this.

Thanks for the thought though 

[kustenjaeger]

I have a PDF copy fred - I am just not allowed to access it on my work laptop 

So this will have to wait, but TBF I think I am pretty clear that what i am saying is/was my intention with all this.

Thanks for the thought though 

That's why I bring my iPad to the office 🙂.

Edward

[Big Insect]

Right .... I have just returned home and before I even took my coat off or had a pee ("too much information") I have checked P74, as it is clearly a burning issue.

And the answer is ....

That the references to HQ in the table, should read CO.
This will be corrected in the errata and I will add a clarification note to explain what a fixed formation is, but in the OPTIONAL RULES PDF on Fixed Formations.

Off to take of coat, have a pee, change out of suit, kiss the wife and have a cup of tea! 

Mark

[Dr Dave]

All done? That was too much information 

And the answer is ....

That the references to HQ in the table, should read CO.

Not all of mentions of HQ change to CO surely?

[Big Insect]

We are talking about the aspect of ordering units in other Formations Dave.

Not the +1 for Rigid (for example) etc.

Mark

[AJ at the Bank]

OK - I think I understand the answers to my original questions now .....hopefully!

Is the following correct please Mark?

(1) Update the FF Optional Rule to indicate -

(a) Reece units can be included in either an HQ's or CO's  formation; Sniper units must be allocated to the CO formation (as can only be ordered by a CO) but FAOs and FACs units are not assigned to any Fixed Formation
(b) Doctrine table rules regarding ordering units outside of formation do not apply
(c) COs may order units in other formations, but will suffer a -1CV penalty when attempting to do so.


(2) Update the Doctrine Table on p74 to -

(a) Remove all references to Fixed Formation Optional Rules
(b) Confirm Doctrine impacts as follows  -

Normal : HQs and COs may issue orders to units in other formations, but subject to a -1CV penalty when attempting to do so
Rigid : HQs can only issue orders to units in their own formation, however COs may issue orders to units in other formations, suffering a -1CV penalty when attmpting to do so
Flexible : HQs and COs may issue orders to units in other formations and receive no penalty for attempting to do so


Thansk again Mark!
Adam

[Big Insect]

1) - up to you Adam.
The FF info is there deliberately to ensure that IF the FF optional Rules are played they are integrated into the main rules properly

a) Recce - yes
Sniper - no - they can be allocated to an HQ led FF, or report directly to the CO*
Snipers are Independent units - so have unlimited Initiative distance, so can move in the Initiative phase without orders
* again under FF it all depends upon which formation you are looking to depict, or which scenario. If there is a Sniper attached to an HQ in the actual formation then you an attach the Sniper to the HQ.
b). NO - the CO can order units outside his formation as per page 74 (replacing the word HQ with CO) - the doctrine table applies
c). Yes, but subject to the doctrine modifiers

2).
a). your call on that Adam (see above)
b).
Normal - No - only applies to COs
Rigid - Yes
No - only COs

Thanks
Mark

[AJ at the Bank]

In the normal game (no Fixed Formations played) ...is it ONLY COs who can issue orders to units in other formations then please?

Thanks
Adam

[Big Insect]

No Adam ... in a none FF game there are no formations. There are Order Groups (see top P22) but these can be made up of any unit (that can be ordered) that you as a player allocate to that Commander.

Any HQ or the CO can issue order to any unit that has not already been ordered by another commander, in a none Fixed Formation Game.

The CO can order a unit that another commander (HQ) has attempted to order (but failed - and not blundered) these units will cause the CO a -1 to the CV if included in an order group - as P23 (bottom of page). This only applies to the CO. Other HQs cannot order units that have failed to be ordered.

Fixed Formation rules do not apply in a game were the Optional Fixed Formation rule is not being played.

Thanks

Mark

[AJ at the Bank]

Ah - right - thanks Mark!

[BeeKiller]

Hello.

I've been reading thoughtfully this post, and I've just make a summary to see if I'have understood everything. There is sth I still don't agree with the given solution:
1) when playing FF a rigid CO can not give orders to HQ units, because otherwise there would not be a difference with a normal CO
2) when playing FF a flexible CO has no cost giving orders to HQ units, because otherwise there would not be a difference with a normal CO

Find attached the 1 page PDF summary and if anything is wrong I will make a new version.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkV2e1-ABB-ki2IbA1lE_IoCjVea?e=beIH2l

Thank you very much.

Eduard

[Big Insect]

Hi Beekiller

We are finalizing the Errata and clarifications - so I am not ignoring you but it will be easier to post the final Errata piece on this, once it is finalized.

Thanks
Mark

[BeeKiller]

Thank you Sir. Wainting anxiously