Suppressive Fire & Firing Modifiers

[AJ at the Bank]

Per Firing Modifiers table on p35...

Does an AFV firing AT for Suppressive Fire at Soft target get the +1 modifier if within 20cm please?


Thanks
Adam

[Big Insect]

Which modifier?

The +1 d6 for MGs or the +1 d6 for under half range?

I will check - not got my rules book with me, but I would suspect that the +1 for MG applies.
Quite why on earth you'd want to do it (fire your AT to suppress when you clearly have an AP factor that can knock-out and suppress) I am not sure.

[AJ at the Bank]

Thanks Mark

The +1 for AFVs firing at Soft targets within 20cm modifier

PS - Why would I choose to do this ? - See example with Tiger II firing in separate post.
So much easier to suppress infantry when Firing to Suppress rather than Firing to Kill (esp if not playing Optional Hits Stay On)....which then leaves suppressed infantry either nicely out of the fight...or to be attacked by other units and driven into Fall Back / Knocked-Out.

 

[AJ at the Bank]

Just in case this one forgotten -
Does the modifier apply please?

[Big Insect]

Which modifier?

The +1 d6 for shooting at under 20cms for having MGs at Soft target? Or the +1 d6 for shooting at under half range?

If the MGs, Yes as it is to represent the coax and other MGs it applies to bot the AT and AP factors regardless of target.
If it is half-range, Yes, as well as it is to represent the better effect of weapons close up.

NB: neither applies apply to Smoke as it is different - as you are not firing at the target to inflict casualties.

Does that make sense?

Cheers

[AJ at the Bank]

This does make sense - thanks Mark.

Reference your last point on Smoke - Didnt know that one....don't think that is in the rule book right...If yes - where please?
If no .....one for the Errata on that table on p35 and in QRS perhaps?

Thanks again

Adam

[Big Insect]

You do not need it as an Errata on Smoke AJ - Smoke does not inflict casualties - if you fire Smoke you are firing Smoke, nothing else.
If you fire your other weapons to inflict casualties you get the +1 MG.
The reason you do not get a +1 d:6 when firing Smoke is because the extra MGs do not add to your ability to actually shoot the smoke round ... it is logical ... doesn't need a rule or an errata.
Likewise being closer doesn't hugely help you as again the Smoke is no more or less effective the nearer the target is that it hits.

Thanks

[AJ at the Bank]

Thanks Mark

I can only make the suggestion.

Whilst I completely see the point on the logic - I honestly think its easier for players to see in a table - maybe thats just me though!
Example -
Player A ...."Dont get the benefit of half range because im firing smoke? .....Why not?...Where does it say that?"
Player B....."It doesn't ...it doesn't need to...it's self evident...Smoke is no more or less effective the nearer the target is that it hits."
Player B ...." ! ...I respectfully disagree - Its not in the rules..."

[Big Insect]

With huge respect to all your playing partners AJ ... you probably might need to tell them to get st*ff'd if that is the way they behave!  (NB: I might have to moderate myself now)
If you are playing with such pendants, a nice chap like you should cut his losses and find a new club to play with IMHO.

I accept that a rules writer could write everything down in minute detail, and produce lots of tables, and have lots of photographic examples but in the end you'll never ever cover every eventuality or ever be able to replicate even the most simple of historical situations as adequately as some players would like. Also any paper based rules set will end up unreadable or so unwieldy as to be impractical. Hence my previous comment about on-line games (which was not meant flippantly).

We'll put some (doesn't apply when firing Smoke) notes in the errata for your 'difficult' friend 

Cheers
mark

[AJ at the Bank]

Thanks Mark - much appreciated

Note -  I rather suspect Im more Player B sadly     

[Dr Dave]

If the MGs, Yes as it is to represent the coax and other MGs it applies to both the AT and AP factors regardless of target.

Mark, you're comment that it applies to both AT and AP contradicts the rules. in the table on page 35 it says "+1 if the unit is an AFV firing at a soft target within 20cm" [bold as in the rules]

This is the same wording as bkc2.

Which is correct please?

[Big Insect]

No contradiction Dave.

The target must be 'Soft' - for the +1 for MG to apply, that is not in doubt.
You can fire AT at a 'Soft' target - you just get the extra +1 d6 for suppression.

But again, I am away on business without my Rules book to hand so will double check and revert about it applying to both AT and AP weapons.

The +1 for under half range applies against 'Hard' or 'Soft' targets and for AP and AT weapons

[Dr Dave]

Away again? How the jet set live... 

I think I read your modifiers as applying to ALL fire, but I now think that you mean they apply to suppressive fire only - my mistake. So the MGs contribute to suppressive fire vs AFVs, but not for killing fire. the under 1/2 range always applies for direct and suppressive fire.

[Big Insect]

No Dave

The Firing Modifiers table on Page 35 states:
+1 (d6) ... if the unit (firing) is an AFV (so a Tank or carrier or SPG or half-track) at a Soft target within 20cm (ie. infantry, soft-skin & towed gun). This represents the various MGs associated with with the AFV - such as a coax, top-hatch or hull mounted MGs

So ... this adds +1 d6 - to either the AT factor (assuming that the AFV only has AT to shoot - so no AP factor) and in that case it adds to the number of suppression dice.
However, if the AFV already has an AP factor (even if it has an AT factor) it must use the AP to shoot at the Soft target, so the additional d:6 adds to the potential number of to Hit dice (as a normal shot).

Clear? 

[Dr Dave]

I think I'm getting it. I do think that the suppressive fire section needs expanding and explaining. Sorry.

Am I right then in thinking that an AFV with no AP attacks can only use its 1x d6 MGs to suppress soft targets. It cannot kill soft targets (because it has no AP attacks).

[Big Insect]

Correct - but ....

Example 1:
A tank only has an AT of 3/40 and no AP attacks

• @ 40cm it can fire its AT at an enemy Truck (Soft target) and gets 3 suppression d6
• @ 20cms it can fire its AT supported by an additional +1 d6 for its MGs - but all count as suppressive shooting, it also gets an additional +1 d:6 for being at half range (on its primary weapon)

The alternative would be to give this Tank a 1/20 AP factor, but by doing so it cannot shoot its primary weapon (with its AT score) against Soft vehicles to suppress them (unless the target is over 20cms away). And if it is under 20cm its shooting dice are reduced to just 1/20 (the AP dice) as that must be used against a Soft target. This is not a desired outcome.

Example 2:
A tank only has an AT 3/40 and an AP 2/60 - as it has an AP factor it must use this when shooting against a Soft target

• @ 60cm it can fire its AP at an enemy Truck (Soft target) and gets 2 hit d6
• @ 30cms it can fire its AP but it also gets an additional +1 d:6 for being at half range
• @ 20cm it adds another +1 d:6 to represent its close range MGs

This under 20cm +1 d6 for AFVs is an addition to the main armament, not a separate additional AP factor.

Does that help?

[Dr Dave]

Mark,

Yes, I think that I'm getting it:
1. Suppressive fire is only permitted if you have no ability to cause hits on the target. Fine with that;
2. All of the British 2pdr tanks have AP and AT attacks - hence they can't ever use suppressive fire;
3. British 2pdr AT guns have AT only (no MGs) so they can use suppressive fire vs soft targets;

Is that right?

[Big Insect]

1. this is specified somewhere in the rules (I do not have my set with me) but that is correct. If you have a weapon that can inflict Hits on a target you must use that weapon. The only exception is Smoke. You can choose to fire Smoke at a Soft or Hard target, even if you have an AT &/or an AP factor. Smoke is different from other rounds.

2. No ... 0-40 AT represents SMOKE - so as you cannot inflict HITS or Suppression with Smoke - you use the AP stats at all times - against Hard targets you suppress, against Soft targets you inflict Hits. You do not get a +1d6 for shooting Smoke at under half range or a +1 d:6 for MGs if firing Smoke.

3). Yes. AT guns with solid shot and no HE cannot inflict Hits on Soft targets only potentially suppression. They get a +1 d:6 for shooting at a target under half range but no +1 d:6 under 20cm because they are not an AFV.

[T13A]

Hi

Further to the above queries and clarifications, what happens to an AFV that is already 'suppressed' by small arms fire and is hit again by small arms fire in a subsequent order phase? Do the usual 'Fall back' and 'Retreat' rules apply including the possibility of being knocked out? 

Can someone please point out to me where this is covered in the rules as I'm introducing a friend to BKC tomorrow and I know they will be asking!

Cheers Paul

[T-Square]

No fall back because the fire hitting it does not have the ability to knock out the unit, only to suppress it.  It's similar to sniper fire, it suppressed but does not cause fall back.