Suppressive Fire & Firing Modifiers

[T13A]

Hi T-Square

Many thanks again for the clarification. I'm just about to introduce a friend to BKC, can you please tell me where that is in the rules (I know he will be asking)?

Cheers Paul

[Dr Dave]

No fall back because the fire hitting it does not have the ability to knock out the unit, only to suppress it.  It's similar to sniper fire, it suppressed but does not cause fall back.

That's not how I read it. Bottom half of p.36 seems pretty explicit.

[Ithoriel]

p.35 Calculating Fire says that such fire only causes Suppression. We've taken that to mean that suppressions is literally the only possible effect.

Another one for clarification?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Dave - the 2pdr crew would at least have rifles, and towed guns DID have HE. Also each gun could well have a Bren issued with it, that was standard for most towed guns, for site protection.

IanS

[sultanbev]

I'd agree with that, British and German ATG platoons always had at least one LMG, more often one per gun, and all the crew had rifles. Not that I can think of any ATG that didn't have HE, but even if so, an A/P factor of 1/30cm as a minimum is going to apply to all towed guns of every army.

Mark

[T-Square]

That's not how I read it. Bottom half of p.36 seems pretty explicit.

The way I read it is that there are no unsaved hits.  (i.e. none of the hits inflict damage)

[sultanbev]

Ah, seems we are talking about two different things here.
I'm basically saying that there would never be a situation where a unit doesn't have an Anti-Personnel factor. So there would never be a situation where you use A/T factors against soft targets, unless you are out of range with your A/P factor. In which case firing armour-piercing rounds at infantry or trucks c800m or further away should be useless anyway, or even at 80m for that matter, unless they are in a house or pillbox. Rules allowing armour-piercing ammo to suppress entire platoons of anti-tank guns or infantry for example is generous to say the least.

I think the Calculating Fire section on pg.35 should read.

To calculate firing, take the attack value of the unit from the army list (eg, an attack stat of 3/60 has an attack value of 3 dice). If the target is a soft target, you must use A/P factor if available at that range. if the target is a hard target (units with a save value) then you must use the A/T factor. If you are out of range for your appropriate attack factor, then you can use the other attack factor if it is in range, but be aware it can only cause suppression, and this is named Suppressive Fire. .....

The chapter on Knock-Out on page 36 seems to be completely missing a paragraph on what to do when you fire suppressive fire only. I'd have thought this to be appropriate

When firing Suppressive Fire, that is, using the incorrect attack factor for the target type, the target cannot be knocked out, nor made to suffer subsequent fall backs by similar fire. Calculate the number of hits as usual, and carry out the number of saves. If there are any unsaved hits left, then test to see if the unit is suppressed. If a unit is already suppressed and further hit by Suppressive Fire, it suffers no further ill effect. The idea of multiple activations with a few Bren guns driving off entire platoons of Tiger II tanks is absurd.

Or you can make the fallback rule still apply, but no knock out effect. But as the effect of being suppressed is basically the platoon is temporarily knocked out for the rest of the game turn - is that not drastic enough?

Mark B

[Big Insect]

The number of gun crew with LMGs, rifles etc is considered to be too small to warrant an AP factor. And if we were to allocate an AP factor it would be very low.
So any AT guns or AFVs only firing AT shot - so with no HE rounds - will not have an AP factor (unless the AFV also has MGs in which case it will have an AP factor and must use that.

Units only with AT factors can shoot with their AT factor but this only causes suppression on a target.
'Hits' are caused on a target as usual and can be saved - but instead of putting hits on the unit these become suppressions.
If the same suppressed unit is hit again (by any fire) and receives more hit/suppressions, these are treated as suppressions for fall-back purposes.

Such a AT only unit does not get a +1 <20cm as there is no MG but do get the +1 d6 for under half-range (as this reflect things like better accuracy.

Shooting Smoke at a target unit does not cause casualties, does not get a +1 d:6 for under 20cms and does not get a +1 d6 for under half-range.

I hope that clarifies things

Mark

[T13A]

Hi Mark

Just to confirm.

You seem to be saying that an AFV, suppressed by small arms fire, hit again by further small arms fire can be forced to 'fall back' and KO'd as normal if it has to fall back over 10cm (as per summary list at the bottom of page 36).

Is that correct?

Cheers Paul

[T-Square]

Boy is that going to cause some consternation.  I can see AT being able to push back Infantry and the like.  However, I can't see small arms being able to cause AFVs to fall back.  Maybe if the small arms hitting on a 6, then roll a fallback die.  Small arms fire may scare them but the chances of knocking them out seem to be slim.  

[Dr Dave]

Boy is that going to cause some consternation.  I can see AT being able to push back Infantry and the like.  However, I can't see small arms being able to cause AFVs to fall back.  Maybe if the small arms hitting on a 6, then roll a fallback die.  Small arms fire may scare them but the chances of knocking them out seem to be slim.  

If it's suppressive fire (due to lack of any AT) then they do indeed only hit on a six, plus the AFV gets its save.

Ian - noted on the LMGs. In my 20mm skirmish days all of my 6 pdrs had a Bren detachment. Reading "The 17 pounder at Arnhem", these fellows were a permanent detachment deployed to one side of the gun, not the gun crew happening to have a Bren gun to hand. Hence a troop of AT guns would have permanent access to 4x LMGs - plus whatever small arms the crew actually had. Obviously, doctrinally, this would be for emergency close defence. 

[T-Square]

If it's suppressive fire (due to lack of any AT) then they do indeed only hit on a six, plus the AFV gets its save.

Ian - noted on the LMGs. In my 20mm skirmish days all of my 6 pdrs had a Bren detachment. Reading "The 17 pounder at Arnhem", these fellows were a permanent detachment deployed to one side of the gun, not the gun crew happening to have a Bren gun to hand. Hence a troop of AT guns would have permanent access to 4x LMGs - plus whatever small arms the crew actually had. Obviously, doctrinally, this would be for emergency close defence. 

I just went through the book.  I may have mIssed it.  Where does it say that when firing to only suppress you only hit on a 6?

[Big Insect]

The +1 d6 <20cm MG is only added to existing MGs on the AFV.

If you have an AFV with only AT (that means it has no MGs anyway) you do not add the +1 d6 <20cm as there is no MG to add.

Some AFV's specifically state that they have No MGs, so they do not get the +1 d6 <20cm. Their AP offensive stat is probably HE from their main gun.

Again, it's logical ... the <20cm might be smaller MGs on the vehicle, but equally it could be to reflect greater accuracy of the main guns AP factor at closer range.

This is one of those factors/rules that has been around across a number of earlier iterations of the rules but we will add a clarification in the suppression section of the errata.

We are also adding back in the missing - AFVs are only suppressed on a 6 from suppressive fire (which is old BKCII and CWC etc) in the errata. Thus avoiding the possibility of the mighty JS-III being suppressed by a lowly German infantry rifle platoon.

Hope that makes sense.
Mark

[T13A]

Hi Mark

Sorry for being a pain  but can you please confirm (or otherwise) my last question of yesterday:

"You seem to be saying that an AFV, suppressed by small arms fire, hit again by further small arms fire can be forced to 'fall back' and KO'd as normal if it has to fall back over 10cm (as per summary list at the bottom of page 36)".

Is that correct?

Cheers Paul

[Big Insect]

Yes Paul

Units that are already suppressed by suppressive fire, will fall-back and can potentially be knocked-out as a result of further suppressions (whether from suppressive fire or ordinary Hits related suppressions or a combination).

Thanks
Mark

[Big Insect]

I just went through the book.  I may have mIssed it.  Where does it say that when firing to only suppress you only hit on a 6?

It doesn't Terry

It was a known omission/errata and will be corrected in the new BKCIV errata sheet - so you can only suppress with Suppressive Fire against AFVs (e.g. a 'Hard' target) on a 6

Thanks
Mark

[T13A]

Hi Mark

Many thanks.

Cheers Paul

[T-Square]

Mark,

Thank you.  That's why I couldn't find it. 

Terry

[Dr Dave]

Remember, the RAW is for tanks within no AP. If you use if for troops with no AT then the target AFV still gets a save against any hits. It will be difficult.

Interestingly the suppressive fire rule is only for guns with no AP capability as it appears in bkc1 and 3. There's no mention of it applying to infantry with no AT. I spoke to a veteran of 1 Worcesters about 18 months ago and on the Island in Oct 44 they KO'd two German tanks with small arms fire. Both the commanders took head shots when the platoon let loose. So it's difficult, not impossible, and small arms can push back (KO in game terms) AFVs.