Enlighten me. Why is the SYW superior to Napoleonics?

[Leman]

The two sites obscure battles and not by appointment also have some very useful SYW material. NBA also has some very nice  flags to resize and print.

[Westmarcher]

Thanks. Interesting resources. 

[found these links]
http://nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.com
http://obscurebattles.blogspot.com/p/battles-by-year.html

[John Cook]

Perhaps this link:

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Main_Page

That is a very useful site.  Many thanks

[John Cook]

Why does one have to be better than the other? 

I've been into Napoleonics for more than fifty years and the first thing I'd ask, is which 'Napoleonic war' are we talking about.  The Treaty of Amiens is usually considered to be the point marking the end of the French Revolutionary Wars and the start of the Napoleonic.  This means we can forget about the First and Second Coalitions.

So, if we accept that we mean wars against Napoleon's Imperial France then we have Third to Seventh Coalition, all of which are separate and different one way or another.  Then there is 'background activity' in the form of the Peninsular War from 1807 until 1814, British expeditions to South America in 1806 and 1807, Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812 and the War of 1812-1814 in North America.

The only sensible approach is to consider these individually and any attempt to conflate them into a single wargaming period, even if confined to Europe, is a recipe for madness I'd say.

Uniforms didn't change nearly as much as people perceive.  There were no substantive changes until around 1807 and they were far from immediate.  Similarly the variety of uniforms, as far as I can see, is not significantly greater than those of the Seven Years War.

The Seven Year's War is not my forte but it too was equally global in nature, was it not?  The war in Europe seems to have almost as many separate wars going on as the Napoleonic Wars.  Furthermore, how can the SYW in Europe be considered in the same breath as the French and Indian War and the war in India?  All completely different in nature and scope to my layman's eyes.

I would probably not commit to gaming the Seven Year's War in Europe, but I have always fancied the Indian theatre as a smaller scale alternative in entirely different terrain, with a completely different opponent.

They Napoleonic and Seven Years War are not better than each other.  They are just different.  Both are global in nature and have plenty of 'sub-plots' going on that are different again from the mainstream European theatres.  You have options of massive battles to small engagements, including the occasional amphibious operation.

One thing they do have in common though are iconic leaders – Frederick the Average and Little Boney.

[FierceKitty]

  The war in Europe seems to have almost as many separate wars going on as the Napoleonic Wars.  Furthermore, how can the SYW in Europe be considered in the same breath as the French and Indian War and the war in India?  All completely different in nature and scope to my layman's eyes.

The most farsighted politician England has ever bred thought otherwise.

[Chad]

John

Could not have put it better. I am doing the 'fallow' period of the French Revolutionary Wars which incorporates elements of both those referred to in the basic discussion.

Chad

[John Cook]

The most farsighted politician England has ever bred thought otherwise.

Was he a wargamer?

[Leman]

No, he did it for real.

[Kiwidave]

<flippant mode>on</flippant mode>

   Maybe because SYW takes less time to type/say than Napoleonics? 

<flippant mode>off</flippant mode>

[Dr Dave]

Hang on: " Then there is 'background activity' in the form of the Peninsular War "

Why is the Peninsula "background"?

[steve_holmes_11]

Hang on: " Then there is 'background activity' in the form of the Peninsular War "

Why is the Peninsula "background"?

Because all the cool kids were at Leipzig.

[fsn]

Leman, grahambeyrout and Westie make some interesting points. I agree the SYW is more compact both in scale and deployment. However, that doesn't make it Superior. Looking at the obverse, one could say it lacks scope and is tactically constrained.

There is a lot of colour in the SYW, but I do find the preponderance of tricorns rather dull.

@jimduncanuk - oilskin covers
@steve_holmes_11 - yes those accents are horrible
@John Cook - Sort of agree with a lot you wrote. I may even reluctantly accept the Peninsula War comment.


@FK - Sorry for the late reply, I had a had time finding someone fluent in Prig, though I shall respond fully:

Agree with Leman's point about balance; I find the balance of the big three arms unmatched. You really do need to get your money's worth from all three to win.
OK.

Historical significance. The world we're currently inhabiting was shaped by that war, more I'd say than any other since the Neanderthals backed down. Hyperbole.Its results probably included i) a Prussian-dominated Germany, not an Austrian one; Yet the Prussians were forced to rebuilt after the major disasters of 1806, and the wars of the mid C19 had more to do with Prussian domination. ii) the British Empire, and the fact that we're having this discussion not in French, but in English (giving a few UK members the benefit of the doubt);Simplistic, but OK iii) the French Revolution (Britain had colonies to export the hungry and idle to);Reaching. iv) the alarming realisation that Russia was now firmly seated at the grown-ups' table; Peter I and the Great Northern Warand v) the creation of a really attractive Pendraken figure range.OK

Cultural elements. I can't insist that everyone agree with this, but I've got a thing for 18th century civilisation. Greatest age of music, last great era of architecture, some super-readable poetry, the rise of atheism, and a characteristic chuckle of derision rather than howl of anger at one's opponents. Irrelevant, and you're trying to pick out 7 years from the whole century. I shall claim 8 from Valmy to Marengo and declare myself the winner. You may as well say WWII is a really interesting war because of Punk music and The Tale of Pigling Bland. This shows itself in the uniforms; by contrast the Napoleonic stuff looks vulgar and overdressed to my eye.Really? Napoleonic uniforms (especially those towards the end of the 23 years of conflict) were a lot simpler and more practical than the SYW. Hussars excepted, of course.

National balance (not the same as point one). Of the Big Five, four are serious armies with marked strengths; only the French are in a fallow period between Louis XIV and Napoleon I. Meh. One could say the same of the Napoleonic Wars - except the "fallow French"

Brilliant generalship. Yes, I freely grant Napoleon's breath-taking skill when he got it right. But he himself admitted he couldn't have beaten Fritz. And when we add Browne, Daun, Haddik, Clive, Wolfe, Henry, Seydlitz, Ziethen, and numerous victories against amazing odds....Couple of one hit wonders in there, but one could (and I won't) give a list of equally brilliant generals from Wellington downwards. Also Frederick 20 battles, Napoleon 60. Much more scope to have the odd day off.

The Hohenfriedburg march and tricorne hats.The 1812 Overture, Beethoven's Symphonies 1-8, Nelson Mass ... Belgic Shakos, Crested helmets, bicorns



In short then, Gentlemen, I concur that the SYW has much to offer. I do not mean this in any way disrespectfully, but it is less complex that the Naps and generally fought on a smaller scale. It is, despite the extra corner on the majority of hats, as colourful as Naps, and both conflicts have almost global scope. 

[John Cook]

No, he did it for real.

Pah!  Not a reliable witness then.

[Dr Dave]

Because all the cool kids were at Leipzig.

Well there was the rocket troop. Plus about 100,000 muskets manufactured in GB 🤔.

GB bankrolled the entire thing

No GB = no Leipzig

[John Cook]

Not to mention money which bankrolled all the coalitions.  As for the Peninsular War and the others being 'background activity', note the quotation marks.

[Leman]

I dunno ............ everywhere you look, bloody tricorns:

[Chad]

 

[fsn]

I dunno ............ everywhere you look, bloody tricorns:

Yes, that's what happens when you brigade your grenadiers. 

Looking at the "Uniforms of the Seven Years War" (Mollo  McGregor, 1977), there are 171 figures. 105 (61%) in tricorns, 34 (20%) in grenadier or fur caps, 6 bareheaded and 26 in other headgear - including a couple in deerstalkers. A British Bttn had one grenadier cap for every 8 hatmen.  I think we can say there's a lot of three-cornered hats on a SYW battlefield. 

I have no problem with that and can see the appeal. The great Charles Grant with his figures (were they Spencer-Smith?) impressed me mightily. It is because of him I dislike firing/kneeling poses. 

[Chad]

So perhaps we should rename the SYW as the War of the Great Tricorne Plague. 🤔😜

[John Cook]

Yes, that's what happens when you brigade your grenadiers. 

Looking at the "Uniforms of the Seven Years War" (Mollo  McGregor, 1977), there are 171 figures. 105 (61%) in tricorns, 34 (20%) in grenadier or fur caps, 6 bareheaded and 26 in other headgear - including a couple in deerstalkers. A British Bttn had one grenadier cap for every 8 hatmen.  I think we can say there's a lot of three-cornered hats on a SYW battlefield. 

I have no problem with that and can see the appeal. The great Charles Grant with his figures (were they Spencer-Smith?) impressed me mightily. It is because of him I dislike firing/kneeling poses. 

I think they were mainly Norman-Newton (later Tradition) and Edward Suren 'Willie' 30mm figures.  There may have been some Spencer-Smith in there too, possibly some of the cavalry.