so apparently we are buying f-35s ...

[petercooman]

So, just read in the newspaper that Belgium will most likely replace their f-16's with  F-35's.

I know next to nothing about the f-35, so just out of curiosity i thought i'd ask a group of military enthousiasts i know. 

So what's up with the f-35 gang? (no political point to make, just curious about the fighter!)

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

A mate of mine is on the UK procurement team, I'll send you his details!

[Westmarcher]

From the little I understand (and I am definitely no expert), the F-35 has a much lower radar signature (i.e., stealth) which is no bad thing with modern radars and longer range guided missiles - so, on paper, not a bad choice. You don't have aircraft carriers* so won't have to put up with the choice we made (UK) which is the vertical take-off variant of the F-35 (which, to accommodate the VTOL features, can't include cannon! - if you want cannon, you have to fit a separate pod to the wing or something - which probably increases the radar signature?). I say, "Good for Belgium" if you can afford it. If my country (Scotland) was independent, I would probably advocate funding a squadron of Gripen-E's - a very capable fighter and whilst not having the alleged 'stealth' capabilities of the F-35, is much cheaper to buy and maintain (and when it can land on a straight road, be maintained and replenished from a Lay-by, who needs VTOL?)


* on which we have spent an absolute fortune so can't pay the extra for steam catapults (or the modern equivalent, if there is any)

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Does Scotland have any straight roads?

[Westmarcher]

Dammit! I knew there was a catch somewhere! 

[Ithoriel]

Underpowered, overpriced and designed for a style of war that, should it occur, would probably end in an extinction level event for Homo Sapiens.

Other than that? Great aircraft

[Sunray]

Or do like Republic of Ireland, whose Air Corps have no jets.  Defence of Irish Air Space is entrusted to.......the RAF.

In 2015 the RAF  scrambled Typhoons to intercept a Russian TU95  Bear on course for Shannon Airport.  No doubt interested in USAF stopovers.

It is not confirmed if the UK is paid for this service.

The RNZAF has also disposed and retired its jet fighter/aggressor capacity.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

From my friend in F35 procurement
Of course Gripen E is cheaper!
The latest price for the F-35A is $88M (production batch LRIP 11) .

The latest price for the Gripen E is $150M, where Brazil ordered 36 aircraft for $5.4 billion in 2014.

LRIP 12 will drop the price a little more and I'd expect it to bottom out around 80M$.

Belgium would buy Conventional Take Off and Landing Variant (Ctol).
I'm not sure about Gripen E's connectivity with other arms but F35 is more than a Stealth Fighter, it's systems communicate it's sensors with the rest of the battlefield ops without the pilot needing to use eyeballs.
And as for the servicing comment, given that they've only made a couple of hundred Gripen E's, and F35 will be approx 3500, parts availability and cost in 25 years will be either comparable or less for F35 IMHO.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

And his second part
The cost is a scale thing, not a gadget thing (although that does play a part of course). If you make high production (and Fort Worth looks more like a car plant with a moving production line) you can drive down cost with economies of scale. Gripen is more "hand built" small scale, just like Typhoon and F22, and they're all pricey!

[Sunray]

And his second part
The cost is a scale thing, not a gadget thing (although that does play a part of course). If you make high production (and Fort Worth looks more like a car plant with a moving production line) you can drive down cost with economies of scale. Gripen is more "hand built" small scale, just like Typhoon and F22, and they're all pricey!

We will probably see an increasing  dichotomy in warbird production. 

The nations who need them (for defence and prestige ) will go for the big bucks state of the art.

The smaller nations with need for more modest air defence will opt for budget trainers upgraded for interception - like the BA Hawk, Aero and the AMX strike aircraft - the pocket Tornado. 

[SV52]

First crash was late September over in Carolina, the Marine Corps pilot ejected safely.  Cause is currently under investigation.  Not much of a problem for the Yanks but a large hole ($88m) in our cash-strapped budgets.

[Westmarcher]

From my friend in F35 procurement
Of course Gripen E is cheaper!
The latest price for the F-35A is $88M (production batch LRIP 11) .

The latest price for the Gripen E is $150M, where Brazil ordered 36 aircraft for $5.4 billion in 2014.

LRIP 12 will drop the price a little more and I'd expect it to bottom out around 80M$.

Belgium would buy Conventional Take Off and Landing Variant (Ctol).
I'm not sure about Gripen E's connectivity with other arms but F35 is more than a Stealth Fighter, it's systems communicate it's sensors with the rest of the battlefield ops without the pilot needing to use eyeballs.
And as for the servicing comment, given that they've only made a couple of hundred Gripen E's, and F35 will be approx 3500, parts availability and cost in 25 years will be either comparable or less for F35 IMHO.

That's interesting to hear from someone in the know, Lemmey, although not quite sure why he says, "Of course Gripen E is cheaper" but the figs above say it costs almost double(?). As I mentioned, I am no expert, but I do have the feeling these costs do not compare like for like (presumably back-up support, training, spares and upgrades, etc. will fudge the issue?). I must have been thinking of the Gripen C/D which has/had a reported unit cost of $60m - I probably wrongly assumed the upgrade to E would not cost too much more (in expensive jet fighter terms). I also see that unit costs for the UK's F-35B's (Belgium will go for the much cheaper CTOL F-35A) were put at $161m in the recent past but that this has now gone down to approx $121m (why so high in the first place? something taken out?) only for some new announcement in March stating that the UK will be paying for an upgrade - we've hardly got the plane and we are already upgrading it? All very confusing.

Ireland and New Zealand's geographical positions help in their decisions to save money by not having expensive (to buy and run) fighter jets but similarly sized (population wise) countries like Denmark, etc., don't have that luxury and so have to spend money in that way (Denmark has about 30 F-16s)(there was also a heated debate in the Irish parliament about the Russian incursion and their lack of fighter cover). An independent Scotland is a hypothetical situation, of course, and the need and prohibitive costs for defence were one of the many factors I considered in our own recent independence referendum before making my decision (I voted "no" btw - as a Scot who knows more about his country's history than most "yes" voters, it was a very hard decision, and sometimes one that does not sit easy with me). Scotland is not only geographically closer to Europe but would also have oil fields to defend. It not only wants to be part of Europe (Brexit poll results) but the SNP told us, also a member of NATO (Ireland is neutral) so would need to spend. As much as I love the nifty Hawk (and have previously looked at it as a possible solution), I would not like to be the politician who faces the families of downed pilots who were sent to defend oil wells in what is still essentially an upgraded trainer. Unless awash with cash, I would guess some small countries who have a need for air defence may have to go second-hand but with the much cheaper unit cost for the F-35A and the carrot of mass production keeping future costs down, who knows? All in all, in spite of the recent crash, in my opinion it looks like it is still a good candidate for Belgium's future air defence, Peter.

Anyhoo, flying away now (pun intended) - must bow out of the discussion as I have to focus on writing a wedding speech for my daughter's wedding! Yikes!          

[fsn]

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Does Scotland have any straight roads?

Just no flat uns

[Leman]

I think Lem was going for sarcasm, but missed by $62M - oops! best hope the plane doesn't.