War Grave or Jail?

[Westmarcher]

In the early years of our relationship, my wife told me the story of her uncle who was made a POW by the Japanese and lost his life when the ship that was transporting him and his fellow POWs was torpedoed. A few years later, when my daughters were still children, I took the family on a visit to the Army Museum in London. Of course, I could have stayed there almost the whole day but there came that point when the family was fed up and so we had to make our way to the exit. Walking down a long slightly bare corridor exhibit-wise, and seeing my shoe lace was loose, I stopped beside this old glass cabinet to tie my shoes. As I stood up, my eye caught sight of the sketch of a cargo ship going down. It was the same ship, the SS Lisbon Maru, that my wife's uncle had been on and the sketch had been drawn by one of the survivors. What were the chances of randomly stopping at that cabinet?

From my memory of her telling of the story (and so I'm probably not fully correct with the details), the POW's were battened down in different holds when the ship was torpedoed. The Jap troops were evacuated but not the POWs. There were 3 signallers among the POWs - my wife's uncle was one - and they started to communicate with each other. The POW's who then broke out, overcame the few Japs left to guard them, and then jumped ship to swim to the nearby Chinese mainland. As they swam they were machined gunned. Although some made it to shore and were helped by the local Chinese, many, if not all of them, were later rounded up by the Japs. Many POW's were trapped when the ship went down. We do not know my wife's uncle's story after the ship was torpedoed but he did not survive.   

As I write, a story of the SS Lisbon Maru is on the BBC website (see link)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-44814053

There is talk of raising it. The last remaining survivor (see the BBC report) is against this because it should be regarded as a war grave. But the opposite argument is for raising it because the remains of the POWs are still effectively in a Japanese jail. What does the forum think?   

[Ithoriel]

My great uncle was on the SS Lisbon Maru and, as far as we know, still is.

If the ship is raised, it's raised. The dead won't care.

For myself, I'd sooner he was left where he is, with his mates around him.

[Dr Dave]

I would have thought that it would have designated as a war grave.

Sadly perhaps there will be little, if anything,remaining physically of those poor lads who perished. I'd leave them where they are I think. Remember that the dead of Belsen lie still within the confines of the camp. The Lisbon Maru was merely a transport vessel, not a jail per se.

Very difficult.

Bloody Ja......   

[Ithoriel]

Bloody Ja......   

My grandmother went to her grave blaming the Americans who sank the ship rather than the Japanese. "Nowt so queer as folk!"

[fsn]

For me, I'd leave it where it is.

They won't find every body will they?

Just don't see the point.

[Dr Dave]

They won't find every body will they?

I fear after all these years in salt water there will actually be nothing remaining of the men who were lost.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

What is left would depend on the depth the ship was sunk in, and the length of time. Skeletons were found on the ships sunk at Rabul. However in this case I doubt there would be much left. Even so the wreck would be considered to be a war grave by the Commonwealth War-graves Commission, as Prince of Wales, Hood, Renown  and the WWI wrecks in the North Sea are.

IanS

[Orcs]

Leave them where they are among their friends who they died along side.

[Poggle]

I say Leave it be. It's possible some remains are still in the wreck, but what would be the point of raising it? Ancient history.

[Westmarcher]

I'm inclined to think it should be a designated war grave also. Presumably there are remains down there (why else would someone contemplate raising the wreck? Plus, human bones were found in the Mary Rose) but, as has been mentioned above, how could you know who is who? With the documentary maker being Chinese, I wonder if the Chinese practice of ancestor worship* is a factor in his belief that these guys are still in a jail.

Interesting that you, too, had a relative aboard, Ithoriel (my wife's granny always blamed the Japanese, never the Americans). I used to work with a guy, a Yorkshireman, and one day at work, to my astonishment (because I had never ever mentioned it), he also came up with the story of a young guy who was his mother's boyfriend at the time he was lost on the Lisbon Maru and who (in his mind) might have been his father if fate had not intervened. 



*A religious practice based on the belief that deceased family members have a continued existence, that the spirits of deceased ancestors will look after the family, take an interest in the affairs of the world, and possess the ability to influence the fortune of the living.

[toxicpixie]

I suspect less "ancestor worship" and more "stick to beat both Japan and America with". For my two pennoeth, leave them, for all the reasons everyone's already given.

[Westmarcher]

Mrs Westie and I have just been interviewed and filmed for the upcoming documentary film. Interestingly we were shown sonar images of the wreck, some ship plans showing the holds where the P.O.W.s were held - separate holds for RN personnel (Mrs Westie's uncle would have been in there), Royal Scots & Middlesex(?) regiments and the last one, Royal Artillery (?) - tragically the R.A. boys didn't make it - they knew they were doomed and apparently sang* as the ship went down. Still no further information on the fate of Mrs Westie's uncle but we did note that the RN hold was the nearest to the bow machine gun and the hatch opening well within the field of fire. One of the questions we were asked was what our views are on what to do with the wreck and the remains. After giving our answer, I bounced the question back. We were told at least one London woman wanted her relatives' remains back because they have an empty family grave waiting for him. As I suspected, we were also told it's a Chinese cultural thing - a bit like the Yanks of today I suppose when it comes to leaving no-one behind - if our boys were their's the Chinese would want them back home, too.

Ithoriel, or anyone else who has connections with the incident, if you wish to contribute / be interviewed for the documentary, drop me a p.m. and I'll see if I can get contact details passed on to you. The Chinese lassie who interviewed us is currently based in Edinburgh and only in the UK for a month.

*they sang, It's A Long Way To Tipperary.

[steve_holmes_11]

I suppose I've grown up in a time and a culture when there is a decline in interest in a "last resting place".
I therefore don't have the strong feelings of a culture or time when "leave no boy behind" or "resurrection of the body" were/are powerful beliefs.
Even memorials from that time accept that there would be those "known only to god" and others who had no last resting place.

It's certainly common and traditional practice to leave shipwrecks where they lie, provided the water is deep, there is no navigational hazard and no danger of environmental pollution.
Against that the modern reality that many wrecks have fallen victim to unofficial salvagers - recent examples being victims form the Battle of the Java sea.

The other consideration for those lost at sea is that recovery is not trivial, and a wreck  usually contains many bodies.
This complicates the process of complying with the wishes of next of kin.

I have a dutch friend whose hobby is excavating second world war sites.
At first his group found artifacts like bullets, belt buckles and discarded ration packs.
He now works with a group who locate and identify casualties.
They liaise with the country of origin to arrange appropriate return and burial of any remains.
It sounded rather macabre to me, but their facebook group contains entries from many American familiies who find great comfort that their missing relative has been located.
Eric also works with an American veteran's organisation, and has met the living comrades and families of some of the soldiers he has recovered.
The families are often delighted to receive an artifact like a mess tin on which the relative had scratched his name.

He is first and foremost a history buff, but also feels he is repaying a debt to men who made a sacrifice to liberate his nation.

[Dr Dave]

Steve, it sounds to me like your pal is doing a grand and noble job. If they can be found then they should be.

Alas, in the case of a ship, there's unlikely to be much left to bring home after so many years.

The thing that gets me choked is the efforts organisations go to to identify the once missing, and the lengths the military go to for their men. I recall a colonel of the Royal Fusileers being interviewed after a RF mass grave had be found in Flanders: "it's importamt to know where ones men are".

[steve_holmes_11]

I watched a documentary (Probably via YouTube) some months ago which examined how the attitude to war dead changed with history.

We in the West certainly owe thanks to the Americans, who led the way after their Civil War.
I'm not certain whether President Lincoln originated the term "Hallowed ground", but their military cemeteries established after that war set a style and standard to which we all aspire.

Prior to that, most battle casualties could hope for being rolled into a mass grave at best.
I'm sure we are all familiar with tales of Waterloo Teeth, or various steppe successor's pyramids of skulls.
Possibly less well publicised is the importation of ground bones for use as fertiliser.

I've seen neat military cemeteries from much earlier.
But from a time when disease took more lives than enemy action, most of the headstones read "Died of disease".

The rest of the west seems to have caught up during the first world war, with the extensive cemeteries along the western front, and larger memorials.

There's still a distinction between the American practice of "Bringing the soldier home" and our "Some corner of a foreign field".
I wonder how much this also owes to history.
American isolationism and later the Monroe doctrine saw their soldiers fighting on or close to home soil.
The Civil war also coincided with the early days of affordable and portable commercial embalming.

At this time the British and many Europeans were fighting to extend their empires to the ends of the earth.
Mass repatriation of casualties would have been impractical and a severe health risk.

The fairly recent repatriations of Afghan casualties at Wooten Basset may indicate a more American attitude from the British.
At least while the war is low in intensity and casualties are relatively few.
Where it brings solace to the bereaved it must be a good thing.