For King and Parliament publishing update

[Steve J]

Having played PBI before, I wasn't a fan of grid based games. However I find these rules work really well and are incredibly quick to play. No arguing whether the unit is a few millimetres out of range anymore, or how far a zone of control extends etc. Basically the squares sort that out for you. Now this sort of game is not to everyone's taste, but each to their own.

[d_Guy]

Hi Jim,
If you use a battle cloth or mat you only have to lay out the grid once (and you really only need to mark the corner points). While that does take some time to do a careful layout, it is reusable, so pretty much a one time cost. Playing a game without the need to measure is much much faster than having to measure multiple times in a turn imho.

Some folks put temporary corners in place for each game and that would get too fiddly for my tastes.

[Jim Ando]

Sorry

Still not conviced. Dont like defacing my terrain just for one rule set. If you want a game with squares or hexes play a board game. It surely doesnt save that much time to play a game where you have to measure. Dont like to dis a set of rules but i have a set of to the strongest and they are not for me.

Jim

[d_Guy]

Really not trying to convince, just wanted to point out that not having to measure is likely a faster way to play. Grids and hexes are not everbody's cup of tea.

[Westmarcher]

Looks like chits are the way forward for the smaller scales - although helping to fit in with smaller grids, miniature cards appear to be fiddly to handle (and shuffle?). However, one observation; whilst understanding the benefits of not having to measure, etc., I recently played another rules set which I have played in 28mm scale, 15mm scale (half measurements) and 10mm scale (40% measurements). To replicate this, I would surely need 3 different grid patterns. This would certainly make me think twice. I think if you would like to have the flexibility to play these rules in more than one scale, you will have to design your grid system to suit perhaps two (possibly three max?) scales. That is not to say, of course, that these are not good war-games rules (in fact, they sound quite intriguing). It's just a factor to bear in mind when marking your table cloth.

[paulr]

One option if using two scales would be to mark the squares for the larger scale and mentally divide into quarters for the smaller scale

The test game I saw used terrain made up of one foot square carpet tiles and they mentally converted it in a six inch grid...

Also not trying to convince one way or another

Another option would be to only use the one true scale

[mollinary]

One option if using two scales would be to mark the squares for the larger scale and mentally divide into quarters for the smaller scale :-

The test game I saw used terrain made up of one foot square carpet tiles and they mentally converted it in a six inch grid...

Also not trying to convince one way or another

Another option would be to only use the one true scale

A good discussion   I am also not trying to convince, I play  games both with and without grids, but as co-author I thought I ought to step in to explain how I tackle it.   As d'Guy says, grids are not to everyone's taste, but there are a number of ways of doing them if you want to. The one grid fits two scales is one I have used, with the larger grid having the corners of squares marked, and when used with an imaginary smaller grid just using the eye to judge,.  As it happens, when I did it the figure scale remained the same (10mm of course) but the unit sizes doubled! I know Simon Miller has used this trick the other way round, having a grid marked with 150mm squares but using units that would fit 300mm.  Once the units are placed at the start of a game I found it remarkable how easy it was to adjust.   

My route to TtS and grids started with the board game Commands and Colours Ancients, which was grid based. I loved the game, and wanted the spectacle of turning it into a figure game. This I did using 6mm figures (sorry!), originally on th exams board itself, and then using more figures on  Kallistra hexes, and had a blast. .it reintroduced me to Ancients after a twenty five year gap durng the WRG 7+ Years.  I then saw Simon's TtS games at a number of shows, and finally tried it at one. I had a lot of fun, enough to buy the rules. Tried it at home and at the club using figures from 6-15mm and found it simple and quick to play but subtle and testing to master.  And it remained fun. That was when I had the light bulb moment that perhaps these rules could finally get my 10mm ECW on the table.  I should also point out it is actually unit size, rather than figure or individual base size, which is the key determinant as far as the grid goes. Still, as I said before, not for everyone.

[Leman]

In response to Jim I now have different battle mats with 10cm (4 inch), 15cm(6 inch) and 20cm(8 inch) grids, mainly because I also dislike marking out squares. I have also found the squares also come into their own when laying out terrain for scenarios where the maps often have one foot squares. 6 inch squares are great for this, but what about those scenarios that insist on 8'x6' or 7'x5' tables? this is one instance where the 20cm mat comes in. I find this works particularly well with 10mm and 6mm figures and a purpose made "12 inch" ruler, where each inch is 15mm in length. Works a treat. Currently fighting a very small FPW scenario using one from the Grant and Asquith book, where all the scenarios are 7x5. Consequently I am using my 15cm Square Bashing mat and cm instead of inches with They Died for Glory rules. Also I ignore the TDFG basing system. All my troops are on 25mm squares, and each base has the combat value of the old-style, originally denoted by the number of figures. Think I will probably start a new thread to pursue this idea.

[pierre the shy]

Evening All

A basing question for Mollinary/D Guy:

Paul and I have agreed that FK&P are worth investing in when they come out next month. Looks like we will be using 15cm squares with 12cm wide bases for foot and horse units. We normally use 6x4 or 6x5 tables and looks like we will try chits rather than cards.  

I've been trying pull together a list of what PM (and other manufacturers   ) figures I might use for a Scots W3K (Montrose and Covenant) force. Meanwhile. in between painting AWI stuff and mowing his lawn, Paul is looking at getting a south of the border force (Parliament/Royalist/New Model) so a refight of Dunbar 1650 might be on the cards at some stage (hopefully with a better result to the Scots   ).

We have both come up with lists totalling around 1200 figures   each using the following numbers per 12cm base based on earlier lists we were looking at originally for Baroque:

Pike and Musket unit 40 figures total, 24 Shot 16 Pike/command figures
Irregulars (Highland Clan) base 30 figures total
Dismounted Dragoons 20 figures total, 16 shot, 4 horse holders
Regular Cavalry 12 - 15 figures total
Artillery 1 Gun/3 - 4 crew per base

My question is would F&KP units use around the same number of figures per 12cm base or do we need to cut down our numbers a bit?

Thanks in advance for any guidance on this question.

If you are in UK/Europe stay safe and look out for the Beast from the East...looks very cold over there from what I saw on the TV news just before.

Cheers
Peter



   

[Bunny]

Although I am no mathematical expert it should be remembered that a D10 will give random numbers each turn, whereas with a pool of chits or cards the chances of a particular number coming up diminishes as it is taken from the pool and placed, ie once a 2 has been placed there are only 7 more 2s in the pool, but 8 of each of the other numbers. This gives rise to considerations about whether to chance taking another chit or not, whereas with a dice roll the chance of getting the same number is the same with each roll.

Now that is a very good point...so ideally you need 4 sets of chits numbered 1 to 10?

[d_Guy]

Evening All

A basing question for Mollinary/D Guy:

Paul and I have agreed that FK&P are worth investing in when they come out next month. Looks like we will be using 15cm squares with 12cm wide bases for foot and horse units. We normally use 6x4 or 6x5 tables and looks like we will try chits rather than cards.  
...
We have both come up with lists totalling around 1200 figures   each using the following numbers per 12cm base based on earlier lists we were looking at originally for Baroque:

Pike and Musket unit 40 figures total, 24 Shot 16 Pike/command figures
Irregulars (Highland Clan) base 30 figures total
Dismounted Dragoons 20 figures total, 16 shot, 4 horse holders
Regular Cavalry 12 - 15 figures total
Artillery 1 Gun/3 - 4 crew per base

My question is would F&KP units use around the same number of figures per 12cm base or do we need to cut down our numbers a bit?
...

Molllinary (the co-designer with Simon Miller) may be snowed in, so hopefully this is useful:

Both Baroque and FK&P assume roughly 500 man foot battalia (and all else realative to that). There is no required figure to unit ratio, pretty much what is aesthetically pleasing to you. Mollinary uses ratios similar to what you propose and they make the units look dense (which is accurate imho). I use about half that number, but I play on 10cm boxes.

Be aware that FK&P allows TWO units to be in a box (with specific rules for how that works). This means that your base depth needs to account for this possibility. This arrangement was brought forward from To The Strongest! where it is tactically neccessary.  The rules will likely say that the tactical formations of the c. 17th will probably limit its use. (I have found it useful for starting deployments).

Both Mollinary and I use sabots to assemble units out of smaller stands.

Incidently FK&P provides for three classes of artillery, Siege, Field, and Light. Light are represented by markers that travel with another unit. Frame Guns would be an example of the latter.

[d_Guy]

Now that is a very good point...so ideally you need 4 sets of chits numbered 1 to 10?

Ideally, SIX sets of 1 to 10 chits (or cards), 120 per side. Four sets would be minimum. But honestly, what ever you and your opponent agree on, imho.

The chits are used for both activation (which remain on the board until a player's turn is over) and for various types of resolution.
In play testing I used a number of different schemes (immediately returning the resolution chits to the draw bag, for example, and using the same chit set for both sides). Mollinary reports using chits for activation and cards for resolution. Each approach, obviously, effects the odds of a given draw.

[mollinary]

Evening All

A basing question for Mollinary/D Guy:

Paul and I have agreed that FK&P are worth investing in when they come out next month. Looks like we will be using 15cm squares with 12cm wide bases for foot and horse units. We normally use 6x4 or 6x5 tables and looks like we will try chits rather than cards.  

I've been trying pull together a list of what PM (and other manufacturers   ) figures I might use for a Scots W3K (Montrose and Covenant) force. Meanwhile. in between painting AWI stuff and mowing his lawn, Paul is looking at getting a south of the border force (Parliament/Royalist/New Model) so a refight of Dunbar 1650 might be on the cards at some stage (hopefully with a better result to the Scots   ).

We have both come up with lists totalling around 1200 figures   each using the following numbers per 12cm base based on earlier lists we were looking at originally for Baroque:

Pike and Musket unit 40 figures total, 24 Shot 16 Pike/command figures
Irregulars (Highland Clan) base 30 figures total
Dismounted Dragoons 20 figures total, 16 shot, 4 horse holders
Regular Cavalry 12 - 15 figures total
Artillery 1 Gun/3 - 4 crew per base

My question is would F&KP units use around the same number of figures per 12cm base or do we need to cut down our numbers a bit?

Thanks in advance for any guidance on this question.

If you are in UK/Europe stay safe and look out for the Beast from the East...looks very cold over there from what I saw on the TV news just before.

Cheers
Peter

Hi Peter,

D'Guy has given you a good run down so far, but, for what it is worth, this is my take.   Number of figures is entirely up to you, whatever you think looks good. My unit sizes are dictated by the the fact that twenty odd years ago I started basing on 1 1/2" squares with the intention of modifying Volley and Bayonet for the ECW and using three bases to a unit. I got a long way with the figures, but not far with the rules!  This means my basic unit size is 4 1/2" wide, plus an extra 10mm for the width of the lip on the sabots I use. So my total unit width is 5" or 125mm, so your 12cm Units are as near to mine as makes no difference. My foot units have about 40 figures, and the standard horse 15. My highlanders have 10-11 per base, so about 30. The dismounted dragoons 12-15 figures. The horse holder base is a marker in FK&P, and so is entirely separate. Mine has a single horse holder and 4-5 horses.

So, bottom line, your current plans are spot on for an army based like mine, but you can alter them as you see fit. The rules are designed for any scale of figures, so you have maximum flexibility. If you haven't got your armies yet, then you can choose a grid size appropriate to your table, and then size your units to fit. If you have your army then you can choose a grid size to suit that.  

I hope you enjoy the Rules when they come out, and if you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask.

Mollinary


   

[mollinary]

Now that is a very good point...so ideally you need 4 sets of chits numbered 1 to 10?

Hi Bunny,

Depends what you mean by a set?  The base set of rules, To the Strongest, use playing cards. Simon recommends each player has two standard packs, with the court cards removed - so a pack of 80. The chits he sells come in packs of 80.  Now, for a one on one game you will need two sets, one for each player. For multi player games, it works best if each player has his own set, but if you want players to play I. Sequence rather than simultaneously, then you can get away with two packs.  For FK&P you can use the same number. However, the introduction of shooting, and the innovation of drawing two cards hitting on 8+s for all the occasions where in TtS you draw one card hitting on a 6+, means you can get through the cards rather more rapidly than in TtS,. So, if you think this dramatically affects the odds as you get towards the end of your turn, you may wish to increase the number to 120.    As d'Guy says, I have got round this by using chits for activations, placing them next to Units, and cards for combat hits/saves etc. Placing them at the back of the table. I think it works better this way round with the smaller scales, but it is entirely a matter of personal taste.

Mollinary

[pierre the shy]

Thanks for the replies on my number of figures question Mollinary and D Guy - very helpful indeed.

We haven't got any existing troops for this period yet, so we will have a chat during tonight's DBMM game to see what we do figures wise.

Cheers
Peter

[paulr]

Thanks Mollinary and d Guy much food for thought

As Peter mentioned we typically play on a 6x4 or 6x5 tables, so with a 15cm grid would get a grid 12x10 or 12x8. From the test game I saw this seems adequate, how does this compare to the recommended size in the rules?

[fred.]

Regarding grids - for Rommel I've found a 12cm grid works well with 10mm figures, and on a 4' deep table gives you 10 squares rather than 8 (with a 15cm grid). Can be useful if you want a slightly larger battlefield.

[mollinary]

Thanks Mollinary and d Guy much food for thought

As Peter mentioned we typically play on a 6x4 or 6x5 tables, so with a 15cm grid would get a grid 12x10 or 12x8. From the test game I saw this seems adequate, how does this compare to the recommended size in the rules?

Hi Paul,

As in TtS the 'standard' grid is 12 x 8. If you were looking to do a particular historical encounter, then the average box is about 100yds square.

Andrew

[paulr]

Thanks, I'll have a look at some maps of historic battles

[mollinary]

Thanks, I'll have a look at some maps of historic battles

Hi Paul,

Not unnaturally, I have looked at quite a few as we have play tested!   For the big ones, my Edgehill came in at 27 x 12, Naseby at 24 x 12.
Have yet to do Marston Moor, but it would be about 30-34 x 12. This would certainly be your largest

Hope this helps,

Andrew